Theresa, This question pops up pretty often when I am discussing preterism with my pastor friends....The reality of Rev.21 today speaks to our position as new spiritual creations in Gods perfect Presence. Spiritually we are in a place of peace, joy, love. etc...hence no sickness, no tears. We need to focus and enjoy this reality no matter what .When we sin or allow the flesh to dictate and control, it is as if we walked outside the New Jerusalem momentarily or longer until we enter back into God's fellowship. God Bless..congrats on recognizing the truth of Preterism!!

Theresa,

You wrote, "I'm trying to say that when I held only the futurist understanding of things I could at least take comfort in His "return" or my going to be with Him and the glories of that. But now knowing His return has already happened I'm left sort of feeling like 'now what?'"

There was a man on another web site who asked a similar question. He wondered what the "hope" of the preterist was since their hope was not in a returning Jesus and an any-moment snatching from this earth (rapture.)

David Curtis, a preterist pastor who Sam is very familiar with, wrote an article which you can find here:

http://preterismdebate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/...

Instead of waiting for a return which Jesus said (approximately 2000 years ago) would be "soon" and "in this generation,' you can live "sold out" for Jesus, making the most of every opportunity and living your life exactly how Sam just described it above.

Instead of a possible any-moment rapture which has failed to materialize for millions of people who were misled, you now face an any-moment passing from this earthly sphere to be with Him in heaven...it's called death. So, as Sam wrote, make the most of your time knowing He keeps His Word perfectly, and His love for you will never fade.

Blessings

The Highest Heavens was ultimately what mankind was made for. That heavens has "come down" to dwell in His Body, of which we are made "members". We have been given a taste and a full knowledge that regardless of our fears, trials, set backs and victories here and now - the "forever" of His unending Love for us will never fade, never be removed, and never cease to be - that, for me, makes living "in the world" a whole lot better. In fact - it should bring about making this world as much "heaven on earth" as possible - starting with me, my family, my neighbors, and my nation.

Thank you for your response. I am going to re-read it to make sure I fully understand.

Just for the record when I said, "I see the return of Christ at AD 70 but I truly don't see what difference it made for the church." I realize it sounded sort of like I'm minimizing what Christ did. I in no way meant that. I'm trying to say that when I held only the futurist understanding of things I could at least take comfort in His "return" or my going to be with Him and the glories of that. But now knowing His return has already happened I'm left sort of feeling like 'now what?'

It seems that everything I ever read in the NT, all the promises and words of comfort etc. were given to those believers at that time. It seems that scripture points to that the culmination of all was to be upon the second coming and the saints being "caught up" with Him and being transformed. So I guess what I'm asking is what is the transformation Paul spoke of upon His second coming and how has it made a difference for subsequent believers? Seems to me that those believers even before that event saw a lot more of the power of God in their lives than do we today. Just my opinion.

I don't know if I'm making sense or not.

I'll tell you though, this "preterism" has sure tipped me on my head. I wasn't looking for this and it's like I was just going on my merry way, turned a corner then WHAM! Kind of similar to the teaching on election and some other things but I think this one has me reeling the most, LOL. Not that it should make a difference, but it was a great encouragement to me to hear that RC Sproul also believes this (at least mostly as he's still working it out) as I really trust his scriptural integrity so it gave me reason to let down my guard a bit and open my ear.

How could we get something so big so wrong......it's so glaringly obvious. I would see things like "by no means will this generation pass" and "some who are standing here" and I might have had a fleeting moment where it may have made me say hmmm but nothing really ever made me stop and say, "Wait a minute, He said....." WOW! I guess church teaching got to me before I got to those scriptures.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer. I will continue to search with open heart and mind.

God bless!

Theresa

Theresa and Chuck,

Great question, great answer! The spiritual truths of the Scriptures help us live a life here in the transient, fleeting, physical, three-dimensional world that is "over and above" what we otherwise could or would.

Your Q&A reminds me of a few quotes from C.S.Lewis:

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."


"If you are really a product of a materialistic universe, how is it that you don't feel at home there?"


"You and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness."


"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."






"

Theresa, I am heartened by your honesty and your willingness to forsake potentially faulty presuppositions with the truth of Scripture. You're asking some very insightful questions and my hope is that you will never give up your quest.

We can't be certain exactly how the early Church believers (post 70 AD) processed the desolation of the OC as Christ came to vanquish His adversaries. Did they fully comprehend the entirety of what that meant? Did they partake in the fullness of those ramifications? Probably not to extent we do today. How much of the NT canon were each of them acquainted with? Although we believe every NT book was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, it's understandable that they didn't have the same comprehensive view of God's word that we have today. Never in history have we had such incredible access.

Did they put together Jesus' prophesied destruction of the Temple at the end of the Jewish age with "In a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay"? Did they realize that the New Heavens and Earth were a spiritual reality? I think so on both counts. The point is that they believed God had been truly faithful.

Were they still being persecuted by the Judaisers after 70 AD? Were they continually chided to maintain the OC law after the Temple and the genealogical records were obliterated? No temple, no priests, no sacrifices...

No longer would the child born according to the spirit be persecuted by the child born according to the flesh. (Gal 4:21-31) So in great measure I think they understood the transaction that had taken place. Their adoption, redemption and salvation, which the Apostle Paul spoke about imminently, were realized and I believe recognized.

Regarding the NH&E. Revelation 21:4-5 (NASB) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." 5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said*, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

Theresa, in context, they would have known that in this heavily sign-ified book, John wasn't all of a sudden moving away from the figurative to the literal. Every bit of this fulfillment “must soon take place”. We have the bookends of this testimony at the beginning and end of the Revelation.

Much like in John’s vision where Jesus said, “I am making all things new”, the Apostle Paul, some 10 years earlier spoke of these believers as being new creature in Christ. Paul went on to state that the time was short and the form of their world was passing away.

Jesus, in his conversation with Martha had already made clear that physical death was not the ultimate enemy. John 11:25-26 (NASB) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Do you think that the death in Rev 21 was spiritual in nature? (This is rhetorical since I know you are in agreement at this point) John certainly did. I think the issue is that the modern day Church has developed ill-fated presuppositions and they have a misplaced hope that must be righted. Is there ever to be a place or time on earth when we no longer cry or suffer pain? I truly don't think so because that's not what new life in Christ is about.

Theresa, does any of this make sense? Can you see how 70 AD was a huge deal for those heavily persecuted Christ followers? It was the vindication they’d been promised.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (NASB) 5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

God truly was/is faithful!

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a question. This is all new to me and I'm trying to work through the questions and get answers. For me, I can see the AD 70 return has to be true. Just no way around it. But when you say, "If we're living in the new heavens and earth, where there is no more sickness and crying" that I don't see. I've found the last 27 years as a Christian to be the most crying, confusing, frustrating and struggling I've ever done in my life. I see the return of Christ at AD 70 but I truly don't see what difference it made for the church. Again, I want to understand and know the truth and if that proves to be the truth so be it but I don't see this side of AD 70 as anything glorious, maybe in heaven but not here on earth. What am I missing?

I appreciate anything that can bring clarity. Thanks.

cwoty writes:

<< So we may "fix all that" but the problem is, most people don't want fixed what they fail to realize is broken. :) >>

The big thing though is people are beginning to look into it now that the issues have been identified. And the part-prets are stirring the waters of interest by trying to refute the 'heretics' - and not doing a very believable job of it. Their proof-texting and fallacious arguments are exposing that they deviate from a sound hermeneutic - even more than they can accuse the fullprets of doing.

All we need do is show 'em where the crack is, and the breaking point will be found. The Dispys are already starting to fall under the weight of that. And the part-prets are beginning to scramble for the Krazy glue to keep from falling with them.

Although reminding them they are the ones who started this break with 'historic orthodoxy', will of course be denied by them to the end!

Can we really expect a fair fight? Which should never mean we pursue it their way.


Robin

I'm working with Michael Loomis right now on an advertising project in which I will be covering the cost. I don't want to sit around and wait for preterism to wander into my city. I 'm going to bring it in myself.

I'd also like to start a church here, but I'm not a captivating speaker. Nor could I answer, off the top of my head, all the questions that would be asked by people about preterism.

Too bad you can't move to Ardmore brother! Don and Jack Scott are over there. Or too bad you can't travel to Wichita, KS. They are a Full Preterist group that meets once per month right now. Well, if our church can gain enough momentum in the next few years, and get large enough...we'll be sending church planters all over...and having people come to train in our church and then send them back out to their homes to start new churches. Pray brother, and keep listening to AD70.net and support it financially if you can...the quicker the word gets out, the more likely preterism will coming to a town near you.

Blessings, Joseph.

Joseph wrote: "Preterism fixes all that, and makes the present reality of life "full" and "fulfilling" in Christ, with a positive outlook in the world and our future, and also gives a positive and fulfilling outlook on the afterlife with our Lord."

You've identified the crux of the issue Joseph. This is precisely the reason so many reject full preterism. If we're living in the new heavens and earth, where there is no more sickness and crying, then they ain't buying. This is not what they signed up for. People have simply misunderstood the expectations of the New Covenant.

They don't like your optimism because they're not having a whole lot of fun, have been deluded to believe in a near term 1,000 year earthly utopia, and you're quite frankly raining on their parade. So anything you do to take that away will be met with opposition no matter how deeply your arguments are rooted in Scripture.

Most people are in the denial stage. I think once 2012 comes and goes, the denial will turn to doubt and ultimately severe apathy. The disciples went through the same paradigm shift from earthly/temporal to heavenly/spiritual.

So we may "fix all that" but the problem is, most people don't want fixed what they fail to realize is broken. :)

I heard you talking about church planting the other day on AD 70.net radio. I would give anything to have a church here in Owasso, Oklahoma that teaches fulfilled prophecy. Owasso is a suburb about ten miles north of Tulsa,OK.

Amen to Green! I have met and greatly respect Todd, but I would submit a hardy "hoora" and agree that Todd's view of what is happening in the FP movement is all in his mind. Truth is that there are more active and open full preterists and new people coming to believe and check this view out than ever before due to the advent of technology and the ability of the average person to study things out for themselves and see the many problems and inconsistencies (and pessimistic outlook) of nearly every futurist eschatology. The only thing good about nearly every futuristic view, is what happens after the world is destroyed and recreated. So basically, life sucks until it ends...or is only good until near the end, then it sucks bad again, and is then rebuilt.

Preterism fixes all that, and makes the present reality of life "full" and "fulfilling" in Christ, with a positive outlook in the world and our future, and also gives a positive and fulfilling outlook on the afterlife with our Lord.

I never thought I'd see the day where Todd Dennis would seek acceptance and justification from Cary Dos Santos. What a crazy world we live in!

Regardless, the "isolationism" is really only in his imagination. When we have people like Rob Bell, Brian McLaren and NT Wright speaking publicly about the importance of AD 70, a "new exodus" in the first century, and the fulfillment of Matthew 24 at the destruction of the Temple, that's anything but "receding." More and more Christians are becoming aware of these events, which is no small matter.

Wishful thinking does not bring about reality Todd :)

Lincoln wrote:
The Partial Preterist is like a football player that runs the ball to the fifty yard line, spikes it, and starts celebrating a pseudo victory. The Full Preterist picks the ball back up and takes it the distance to finish the job and secure true victory.

I like it!!! Rather sometimes, in the case of men like Demar, Wright, Liethart and Jordan...it's like getting to the 1 yard line and being tackled by "creedalism" causing a fumble and Full Preterism picks it up and scores the game winning touchdown. I'm reading Liethart's treatment of 2 Peter 3 and becoming so frustrated with the inconsistencies!

Great Post!

And I love the responses by Green.

Another swell response from Dave (Bada Bing!) Green

"My response: The reality, of course, is that the dead weight of partial (inconsistent) preterism is seriously helping the greater acceptance of preterism in the Christian world. :)"

Partial, inconsistent, incomplete, halfway, half-done, insufficient . . .

The Partial Preterist is like a football player that runs the ball to the fifty yard line, spikes it, and starts celebrating a pseudo victory. The Full Preterist picks the ball back up and takes it the distance to finish the job and secure true victory.

Full Preterism completes and makes sense out of the End Times by tying together all the loose ends left dangling by Partial Preterism.

Partial Preterism is a maze of confusion in which there is no way out. Full preterism is a straight road that leads to the Promised Land.