Duncan W. McKenzie, Ph.D. Article on Resurrection

May 20, 2011 by Guest

53 Comments 53 Comments

[From Samuel: I am good friends with Duncan and he asked if he could post this article. Of course, Dunk is not a Full Preterist, though he has some aspects of FP that he blends into his view. Here is his article (which I have not read yet) that he requested I post here. Since he has always been on good terms with us, and shows a degree of character that is Christ like, he is more than welcome here]

I see a lot of people get into very intense debates on the nature of the resurrection. I tend to stay out of these debates for the simple reason that I am not sure. I tend to lean toward the IBD concept of the resurrection, although I also see corporate aspects taught as well. While I am not sure on the exact nature of the resurrection, I feel much more sure on the timing of the resurrection.

The Resurrection Would Begin at the Second Advent

One of the basic differences between partial preterism and full preterism is that partial preterists separate the great tribulation (which they correctly say happened just prior to AD 70) from the resurrection and judgment (which they say will happen at a future Second Advent). While I am not a full preterist, I do agree with them on this issue: Scripture consistently shows the resurrection as beginning right after the great tribulation.

Both full and partial preterists agree that Revelation 20:11-15 is referring to the time of the judgment and resurrection.

Then I saw a great throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11-15

This is showing the time of the resurrection—the time when death would be defeated (v. 14).

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the fristfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26

The “end” here is not the end of the world, but the end of the old covenant age (cf. 1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 1:1-2; 8:13; 9:26). Jesus speaks of this in Matthew 24.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these thing be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? . . . [Jesus answers] But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:3, 13-14, cf. Rom 10:17-18; Col. 1:5-6, 23

Jesus’ putting down of all rule and power happened at AD 70—right after the great tribulation: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Matt. 24:29). This can be seen in Daniel 2 where Nebuchadnezzar’s great image is destroyed by the coming of the kingdom of God (vv. 34-35, 44-45). It can be seen in Daniel 7 where the four beasts are all stripped of their authority at the same time (vv. 11-12). It can be seen in Revelation 11:15-18 where the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of God (notice that the dead are judged at this time, v. 18; cf. Rev. 16:19).

Now consider Daniel 7; it shows the time of the seating of God and books opened that Revelation 20:11-12 portrays. This beginning of the resurrection and judgment was to happen right after the tribulation, at the AD 70 defeat of the little eleventh horn (i.e., Titus, see my chapter on Daniel 7 in volume I).

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated and the books were opened. I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Daniel 7:7-10 underlined emphasis mine

The resurrection and judgment happening right after the tribulation is shown again in verses 25-27.

He [the little horn] shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time. But the court shall be seated [cf. v. 10], and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

Daniel 7:25-27 underlined emphasis mine

This seating of the court for the judgment was to happen at the AD 70 coming of God to defeat the Antichrist (Dan. 7:21-22); it continues since that time. For believers who have died since AD 70 it is not so much a judgment as it is an evaluation of rewards for their works: “. . . Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. [Since the AD 70 fall of harlot Babylon, Rev. 14:6-8] ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors and their works follow them’” (Rev. 14:13).

Daniel 12 similarly shows the great tribulation as being immediately followed by the resurrection.

And he [Titus—the king of the North] shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time, and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt . . . it shall for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 11:45-12:2, 7

There are not thousands of years between the great tribulation and the resurrection; both were to happen by the AD 70 shattering of the Jewish nation (v. 7). This would be the time that God destroyed those who were morally destroying the land of Israel. This is shown in Revelation 11.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth

Revelation 11:18

The great tribulation is shown just prior to this; the beast makes war with the two witnesses—a symbol of the saints—and overcomes them (note that Rev. 11:7, a direct reference to Dan. 7:21). After three-and-a-half days the saints are then resurrected to heaven (Rev. 11:11-12). This was the rapture; it was not a literal catching up to heaven, but a picture of the saints possessing the kingdom of God right after the tribulation. This is discussed in Daniel 7.

I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Daniel 7:21-22

Scripture constantly points to AD 70 as the time of the parousia and the beginning of the resurrection; it does not show two different parousiai separated by millennia. It should be noted, however, that just because partial preterism is wrong in its teaching of multiple comings, that does not mean that full preterism (with its claim of all prophecy fulfilled by AD 70) is therefore correct. Full preterism has its own pitfalls (like a millennium that supposedly started around AD 30 and ended around AD 67).

If Revelation 19:11-21 is not the Second Advent, then the

Second Advent is not Shown in Revelation

For sake of argument, let us assume the partial preterist position is correct and what is shown in Revelation 19 is not the Second Advent but an AD 70 judgment coming of Jesus on the Jewish nation. The question then becomes, So where is the Second Coming in Revelation? If Revelation 19:11-21 is not referring to the Second Advent, I can not see that Revelation ever mentions the Second Advent. Gentry believes it is briefly shown in Revelation 20:7-15. He writes, “In Revelation 20:7-15 we witness the Second Coming and final judgment. But since this is so distant from John’s day, he only quickly mentions them.”[1]

According to Gentry, John was not interested in the Second Advent when he wrote Revelation. Thus, if the partial preterist position is correct, then there is only one vague allusion to the Second Coming in the whole book (in Rev. 20:9)! I have great respect for Dr. Gentry, but that makes little sense. If John was teaching what partial preterists teach, he surely would have mentioned more about the real Second Coming so his readers could understand the distinctions between the supposed two comings. Gentry maintains that Jesus spent a great deal of time talking about the Second Advent in Matthew 24:36-25:46.[2] Given this, it does not make sense that, in Revelation, John would only focus on the AD 70 judgment coming of Jesus and barely even allude to the Second Advent.

As I have mentioned, the judgment of Revelation 20:11-15—that most assume is the end of time—is the same one that is shown in Daniel 7:7-11 and 23-27. It was the time when the court was seated and books opened (Rev. 20:11-12; Dan. 7:7-11). The court would be seated for this judgment at the AD 70 defeat of the little horn (Dan. 7:21-27).[3] Looking at Revelation 20:7-10 (which is talking about the end of the millennium, a future event), I see the judgment of fire on Gog and Magog, but I do not see the Second Coming of Jesus that Gentry says is supposed to be there. One can attempt to make the case that the Second Coming is alluded to in Revelation 20:9 (“and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them”) but that is reading something into the verse that just is not there.

It is not just Revelation that lacks the end of time final advent that partial preterists hypothesize; it is nowhere to be found in the book of Daniel either. Like Revelation, Daniel culminates with the coming of God and full establishment of the kingdom at AD 70 (Dan. 7:21-22; cf. Rev. 19:11-20:4). It does not show another coming past that point. As I have discussed in volume I, four times in Daniel we are brought to the AD 70 end of the age. Daniel 2 (vv. 34-35, 44-45) shows the kingdom of God being fully established during the reign of the tenth ruler of Rome (Vespasian AD 69-79).[4] Daniel 7 (vv. 17-27) narrows the time frame down for the coming of God and his kingdom (vv. 21-22) to right after the little eleventh horn (Titus) had overcome Daniel’s people for three-and-a-half years (AD 67-70, v. 25). Daniel 9 (vv. 26-27) similarly brings one to the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Titus. Finally, Daniel 12 brings one to the AD 70 attack of Titus on Jerusalem at the end of the age (Dan. 11:40-45); this attack results in the destruction of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:1-7). It would be the time of the great tribulation and resurrection (Dan. 12:1-2; cf. Rev. 11:15-18).

Thus, neither Daniel nor Revelation shows a coming of God/Christ past the time of his AD 70 coming. The fall back position for partial preterists at this point is usually to cite the resurrection/rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as still being future. But, as aptly shown by Beale in his chart, 1 Thessalonians 4-5 parallels Matthew 24-24—and many partial preterists say Matthew 24-25 is referring to AD 70. I do believe there is a future end shown in Revelation; it is the end of the millennium. This will be the time when Satan (and all evil) will be finally done away with in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:7-10).

[1] Kenneth Gentry, “A Preterist View of Revelation,” Four Views on the Book of Revelation, 86. Gentry assumes (as most do) that Revelation 20:9 happens right before the judgment (in v. 11) and so it must be referring to the time of the Second Advent. As I have argued previously, however, the judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 is a continuation of the AD 70 throne judgment that was begun in Revelation 20:4. Both happen at the beginning of the millennium. Thus, the five elements of what is shown to be one judgment at the beginning of the kingdom reign in Daniel 7:9-10 are only found by combining Revelation 20:4 and 11-15: A.) Thrones put in place (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 20:4. B.) God takes His throne (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 20:11). C.) Myriads before the throne (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12). D.) Those on the throne having authority to judge (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:4. E.) Books are opened, Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12). For another reference to the judgment beginning at the full establishment of the kingdom reign see Matthew 25:31-46.

[2] According to Gentry’s position, Jesus spends some 36 verses talking about the AD 70 parousia (Matt. 24:3-35 and then some 60 verses (Matt. 24:36-25:46) talking about the supposed end of time parousia. Given this ratio of almost 2 to 1, it does not make sense that John would barely even allude to Jesus’ final advent in Revelation. If he were teaching what partial preterists teach he would have spent much more space differentiating the supposed two comings.

[3] The sequence shown in Revelation 20 is that John starts by describing the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20:1-6. At 20:7-10 he digresses and talks about what would happen at the end of the millennium. At Revelation 20:11 he picks up the subject of the AD 70 judgment reign of the saints that he began in v. 4. This sequence was proposed by J.S. Russell. Daniel 7 supports Russell’s sequence. Daniel 7:9-10 shows thrones being put in place (cf. Rev. 20:4) at the same time that books are opened and the judgment happens (cf. Rev. 20:11-12).

[4] We are not specifically told there are ten toes on Nebuchadnezzar’s image in Daniel 2, but when see the same fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 (v.7) it has ten horns. It is thus safe to assume that ten rulers are in mind in these chapters.

http://drkellynelsonbirks.com Dr. Birks

Dr. McKenzie,

Excellent job here, Doctor. I appreciate your work of allowing the scriptures, without force or coercion, to speak for themselves on this matter.
I take it though, from your last statement in the article, that you do not believe Satan is in the LOF as of yet? Other than that and your reference to the 2 witnesses as being a symbol of the saints during the great trib from AD 66-70, I think this treatment mirrors my own position very closely on these texts.
Thank you for writing this and for posting it here.

Dr. B…
Hal1

Sam and Jason,

Thx for letting articles such as this one be posted here for us to read. :)
Duncan

Thanks guys. Please refer to me as “Duncan.” My Ph.D. is in Clinical Psychology not Theology. Just want to make that clear.
http://bradfield.thereignofchrist.com Jason Bradfield

Duncan, you wrote, “I do believe there is a future end shown in Revelation; it is the end of the millennium.”

But John also said, “the rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the thousand years were ENDED.”

Is that not a resurrection as well? And if it is, how then can the resurrection be solely confined to “immediately after the great tribulation?”

There are clearly stages to the resurrection.

You also quoted I Cor 15, but then made a huge leap to say that all that speaks to the end of the old covenant? How so? You didn’t give any reason for this textually.

You also didn’t give any reason why we should think that Re 20.11-15 follows after the great tribulation vs following the end of the thousand years, which would seem to make more sense, just on the face of it, because we were told that the rest of the dead would come to life after the 1,000 years.

There seem to be way too many assumptions here for me to get anything out of this.
http://thereignofchrist.com Samuel Frost

How about “Dunk”?
Duncan

Sam,

Dunk is ok coming from you. Other might not use it in such a charitable manner, however.

Jason,

Some good questions that have long answers. Let me start with the middle question (about “the end”). I agree with Russell’s conclusions in the chart below. If this chart does not come through correctly go here to see it http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/parousia/parousia-p2-9.php

James Stuart Russell
THE PAROUSIA IN THE FIRST EPISTLE TO TIMOTHY.
THE APOSTASY OF THE LAST DAYS.

1 Tim. 4:1-3—‘Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart [apostatize] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils [demons] speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared as with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.’

One of the signs which our Lord predicted as among the precursors of the great catastrophe which was to overwhelm the Jewish polity and people was a wide-spread and portentous defection from the faith, manifesting itself among the professed disciples of Christ. Our Lord’s reference to this defection, though distinct and pointed, is not so minute and detailed as the description of it which we find in the Epistles of St. Paul; hence we infer, as the language of the first verse of this chapter also suggests, that subsequent revelations of its nature and features had been made to the apostles. It is designated by St. Paul, in 2 Thess. 2:3, ‘the apostasy,’— but he does not there stay to delineate its characteristic features, hastening on to portray the lineaments of ‘the man of sin.’ We have already pointed out the distinction between ‘the apostasy’ and ‘the man of sin,’ to confound which has been a common but egregious mistake. We shall find in the sequel that St. Paul’s description of the apostasy is as minute as that of the ‘man of sin,’ so as to enable us to identify the one as readily as the other.

The first point which it will be well to determine is the period of the apostasy; i.e. the time when it was to declare itself. It is said to be ‘in the latter times’ [en usteroiv kairoiv], an expression which, taken by itself, might seem somewhat indefinite, but when compared with other similar phrases will undoubtedly be found to denote a specific and definite period, well understood by Timothy and all the apostolic churches. It will be convenient to bring together into one view all the passages which refer to this momentous and critical epoch, which is the goal and terminus to which, by New Testament showing, all things were rapidly hastening.

ESCHATOLOGICAL TABLE, OR CONSPECTUS OF
PASSAGES RELATING TO THE LAST TIMES.
The End of the Age
[ h sunteleia tou aiwnov ]

Matt. 13:39—‘The harvest is the end of the age.’

Matt. 13:40—‘So shall it be in the end of this age.’

Matt. 13:49—‘So shall it be at the end of the age.’

Matt. 24:3—‘What shall be the sign of thy coming [parousia] and of the end of the age?’

Matt. 28:20—‘Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.’

Heb. 9:26—‘But now once in the end of the ages [twn aiwnwn]’

The End
[to telov ta telh ]

Matt. 10:22—‘He that endureth to the end shall be saved.’

Matt. 24:6—‘But the end is not yet’. (Mark 13:9 Luke 21:9)

Matt. 24:13—‘But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved’. (Mark 13:13)

Matt. 24:14—‘Then shall the end come.’

1 Cor. 1:8—‘Who shall also confirm you unto the end.’

1 Cor. 10:11—‘Upon whom the ends of the ages are come.’

1 Cor. 15:24—‘Then cometh the end.’

Heb. 3:6—‘Firm unto the end.’

Heb. 3:14—‘Stedfast unto the end.’

Heb. 6:11—‘Diligence unto the end.’

1 Pet. 4:7—‘The end of all things is at hand.’

Rev. 2:26—‘He that keepeth my works unto the end.’

The Last Times, Days, etc.

1 Tim. 4:1—‘In the latter times some shall apostatise’ [en usteroiv kairoiv].

2 Tim. 3:1—‘In the last days perilous times shall come’ [en escataiv hmeraiv].’

Heb. 1:2—‘In these last days [God] hath spoken to us’ [ep escatou twn hmerwn toutwn].

James 5:3—‘Ye have heaped up treasure in the last days’ [ en escataiv hmeraiv].

1 Pet. 1:5—‘Salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time’ [en kairq escatq].

1 Pet. 1:20—‘Who was manifest in these last times for you’ [ep escatou twn cronwn].

2 Pet. 3:3—‘There shall come in the last days scoffers’ [ep escatou twn hmerwn].

1 John 2:18—‘It is the last time’ [hour] [escath wra].

Jude 1:18—‘That there should be mockers in the last time’ [en escatq cronq].
EQUIVALENT PHRASES REFERRING TO THE SAME PERIOD.
The Day.

Matt. 25:13—‘Ye know neither the day nor the hour when the Son of man cometh.’

Luke 17:30—‘The day when the Son of man is revealed.’

Rom. 2:16—‘In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men.’

1 Cor. 3:13—‘The day shall declare it.’

Heb. 10:25—‘Ye see the day approaching.’

That Day.

Matt. 7:22—‘Many shall say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord.’

Matt. 24:36—‘But of that day and that hour knoweth no man.’

Luke 10:12—‘It shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom.’

Luke 21:34—‘And so that day come upon you unawares.’

1 Thess. 5:4—‘That that day should overtake you as a thief.’

2 Thess. 2:3—‘That day shall not come except there come the apostasy.’

2 Tim. 1:12—‘Which I have committed unto him against that day.’

2 Tim. 1:18—‘That he may find mercy of the Lord in that day.’

2 Tim. 4:8—‘A crown… which the Lord… shall give me at that day.’

The Day of the Lord.

1 Cor. 1:8—‘That ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.’

1 Cor. 5:5—‘That the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.’

2 Cor. 1:14—‘Ye are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.’

Phil. 2:16—‘That I may rejoice in the day of Christ.’

1 Thess. 5:2—‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.’

The Day of God.

2 Pet. 3:12—‘Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God.’

The Great Day.

Acts 2:20—‘That great and notable day of the Lord.’

Jude 1:6—‘The judgment of the great day.’

Rev. 6:17—‘The great day of his wrath is come.’

Rev. 16:14—‘The battle of the great day.’

The Day of Wrath.

Rom. 2:5—‘Treasurest up wrath against the day of wrath.’

Rev. 6:17—‘The great day of his wrath is come.’

The Day of Judgment.

Matt. 10:15—‘It shall be more tolerable in the day of judgment’. (Mark 6:11)

Matt. 11:22—‘It shall be more tolerable… in the day of judgment.’

Matt. 11:24—‘It shall be more tolerable… in the day of judgment.’

Matt. 12:36—‘They shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.’

2 Pet. 2:9—‘To reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment.’

2 Pet. 3:7—‘The day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.’

1 John 4:17—‘That we may have boldness in the day of judgment.’

The Day of Redemption.

Eph. 4:30—‘Sealed unto the day of redemption.’

The Last Day.

John 6:39—‘That I should raise it up at the last day.’

John 6:40—‘I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 6:44—‘And I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 6:54—‘And I will raise him up at the last day.’

John 11:24—‘He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.’

From the comparison of these passages it will appear, —

1.That they all refer to one and the same period—a certain definite and specific time.
2.That they all either assume or affirm that the period in question is not far distant.
3.The limit beyond which it is not permissible to go in determining the period called ‘the last times’ is indicated in the New Testament scriptures, viz. the lifetime of the generation which rejected Christ.
This brings us to the period of the destruction of Jerusalem, as marking ‘the close of the age,’ ‘the day of the Lord,’ ‘the end.’ That is to say, the coming of the Lord, or the Parousia.
PaulT

Duncan,

Why am I not surprised to find you at odds with the Apostle Paul? You write,

“The Resurrection Would Begin at the Second Advent”

Yet according the INSPIRED Apostle Paul the resurrection began on Easter,

“in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. …23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

Seems you’ve got your timing of when the event began messed up. Perhaps if you focused on the didactic texts you may gain some clarity on what you are unsure of.

Nevertheless, you go on to point out, “If John was teaching what partial preterists teach, he surely would have mentioned more about the real Second Coming so his readers could understand the distinctions between the supposed two comings. “

Why?

You beg the question, what makes you think John understood the presence of Christ ruling was not real? BTW, your term “second coming”, is that found in Scritpure? The point would be if the subject wasn’t the second “appearing” but the manifestation of His presence and vindication of His rule why would the future appearing where his presence was made manifest physically be required to be discussed in a text not dealing with that subject? You’ve assumed events which may not be connected are. The presence of Christ may be manifested in a variety of methods as Scripture maintains.

You go on to point out,

“The fall back position for partial preterists at this point is usually to cite the resurrection/rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as still being future. But, as aptly shown by Beale in his chart, 1 Thessalonians 4-5 parallels Matthew 24-24—and many partial preterists say Matthew 24-25 is referring to AD 70.”

“Fall back”? This is really weak. Gee, I wonder why you didn’t include Dr. Beale’s qualification,

“The remainder of 4:14-17 elaborates on further details about Jesus’ coming and how the resurrection of Christians will take place: the Lord [Jesus] will come and first resurrect the believing dead and then raise up Christians still living. Even living Christians will experience a ‘resurrection’ in the sense that their old bodies will be transformed and renewed in the same manner as those bodies lying in the grave. All those resurrected will be with the Lord forever (4:17) (1-2 Thessalonians, G.K. Beale, IVP, pg 136)”

Or Dr. Beale’s admission,

“Since Matthew 24 refers to tribulation that precede Christ’s coming, it is likely that Paul is doing the same throughout 4:15-5:11.Scholars debate which tribulation and coming of Christ Matthew 24 actually narrates…(Ibid, pg 137)”

And his concession,

“Paul’s particular combination of reference from Matthew 24 shows that he interprets the whole of the Matthean text as referring to woes preceding the first coming of Christ (and though Matthew does not explicitly mention the idea of resurrection he implies it in the phrase “gather his elect” in 24:31, which implies the gathering of all believers, both living and dead [Marshall 1983:1261]) (Ibid, pg 137,138)”

Now how is it Duncan that a concept not explicitly taught in Matt 24 as admitted by your own expert is “aptly” demonstrated to be linked to the passage in question? Your own expert destroys your claim. Duncan, do you have some source that substantiates the term “gather” means “bringing a dead body back to life”? You do realize the term “gather” is used to call the saints to assembly in Scripture as well don’t you?

However, what you expert does suggest regarding your “options” as to the nature of the resurrection is certainly “aptly” described here.

“Some also denied that there would be a final physical resurrection of all God’s people (1 Cor 15:12; 2 Tim 2:18). The reason for such a denial may have been that some believed Christ has already finally returned in some invisible or spiritual manner and that in some way the resurrection of the church has also occurred in a kind of spiritual way. Similarly, some may have affirmed that, since the Old Testament predicted only one physical resurrection, Christ’s resurrection was representative for the church. Consequently, when one believed in him, one was identified with the risen Christ and at that time experienced a spiritual resurrection, after which no physical resurrection was needed or could be expected, (Ibid, pg 132)”

And here,

“The deceptive teaching in Thessalonica has analogy with a false teaching in Corinth that denied there was to be a final, physical resurrection of the dead (1 cor 15:12-24). The false teachers apparently believed that spiritual resurrection from the dead, which Paul would affirm happens to all at conversion as an inaugurated end-time event, is the only resurrection there would ever be. This may have entailed a belief that there would be no final coming of Christ at all. Paul combats such a notion by contending that all dead believers will be physically resurrected at the end-time, when Christ comes to conclude history (cf. 1 Cor 15:20-28). There was also a similar problem in other Christian churches (2 Tim 2:18; Ignatius, Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1, 2 Pet. 3:3-13; Gospel of Thomas 52 [51]) (The Temple and the Church’s Mission, G.K. Beale, IVP, pg 270)”

I find it a bit humorous the expert you introduce into the discussion condemns your own view or I guess to put it more accurately, whichever view you finally opt for, is the same as that espoused by the false teachers with which the Apostle Paul contended. I think the point here is that NO inspired author taught what you and hyperpreterists teach regarding the nature of the resurrection of the dead.
Duncan

The link to Beale’s chart is here. I find it devastating to those who want to say Matt 24 is AD 70 but the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 is the end of time. Either make both AD 70 or make both the end of time, but don’t try to say they are talking about to different times.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zlyPH_3Pvl4C&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=beale+1+thess+4+Matthew+24&source=bl&ots=KKv-DKOeql&sig=Nty2XblAUvwI6sFn0SG9JptXJxk&hl=en&ei=uN3WTeviEo_BtgfO3P2qBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
PaulT

I find your silence in answer to Dr. Beale’s commentary , pointing out what is and is not explicitly taught in Matt 24 to be
“devastating” to your claims.

If you want to claim Matt 24 contains the resurrection and hold that it occurred in AD70 then you, as Dr. Beale points out advocating the same concepts as the false teachers with which Paul contended.
Dr. Kenneth Talbot

There is a third exegetical alternative to the Matthew 24 text that Beale’s chart fails to consider. Thus it is not correct to make it either/or if the exegetical context allows for a alternative interpretation that removes connection between 1 Thess. 4 and Matthew 24.
Hal1

Dunk and others,

Since the “great day of His wrath, the last day, that day” and all others obviously refer to May 21, 2011, and the end of the world is “at hand” (again!) I want to thank you for your wonderful comments. Adieu. See you on the other side. :)
http://drkellynelsonbirks.com Dr. Birks

Hal,

Send me an Email from heaven, bud! Oh, and if you don’t “I’ll -fly- away -O -glory…”, then… are you going to need counseling? ‘Cuz, my schedule’s getting pretty full….

Dr. B…
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Jason wrote,

“You also didn’t give any reason why we should think that Re 20.11-15 follows after the great tribulation vs following the end of the thousand years, which would seem to make more sense, just on the face of it, because we were told that the rest of the dead would come to life after the 1,000 years.”

Jason,

Rev. 20:11-15 is the time when the court is seated and books opened as the judgment and resurrection happens. This time when books are opened and the court seated (Dan. 7:10, 26) is shown as happening right after the tribulation in Daniel 7 (the time when the little horn overcomes the saints).

7. “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8. “I was considering the horns and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
9. “I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire;
10. “a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated and the books were opened.
11. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking: I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.”

19. “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet.
20. “and about the ten horns that were on its head, and about the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21. “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
22. “until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23. “Thus he said: ‘the fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all other kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, trample it and break it in pieces.
24. ‘The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings.
25. ‘He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time.
26. ‘But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever.
Patrick Stone

REPOST (screwed up the first one)

It may, in fact, be said that it is the SSB that will be resurrected on the last day. But it is only a portion of our former selves, like the luz bone of the ancient Hebrews if you will, that will be raised. Of course, not a literal bone, but the glory of Christ himself that resides in us. It is His glory that will be revealed within us on that last day (Rom 8:18). It is this glory that will be raised (1 Cor 15:43) in lieu of the corruptible earthly body that houses it. After all, in this life we are being transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18), from the glory within us to the Glory of Christ himself. And ultimately, on the last day, our vile bodies will be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phil 3:21). The indestructible luz bone and the dust of the new heavens and earth, will in fact be used on the day of our resurrection. The luz bone will not compose the substance of our new bodies, for it nothing more than the shell or chaff that contains the marrow of our new lives. It is this marrow, the glory of Christ within us, that is the substance of our new life. It has always been His Glory that will form Our Bodies of Glory on the day of resurrection.

[This conclusion is strictly hypothetical! I am only making a feeble attempt to bridge the gap between IBD and SSB. In other words, a part of the existing is body is in fact utilized in the resurrection, like the luz bone of the ancient Hebrews. Criticism and rebuttals appreciated… Blessings… Patrick]
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Hi Patrick,

While your hypothesis is worthy of dicussion, I was hoping to look more at the timing of the resurrection in this post. Along those lines, When do you think the end of the age was (or will be)? Do you see two different ends (that are chronologically distinct) in the scriptures below? This is from Russell’s chart http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/books/parousia/russell_parousia_02g.htm

The End of the Age

Matt. xiii. 39.—‘The harvest is the end of the age.’
Matt. xiii. 40.—‘So shall it be in the end of this age.’
Matt. xiii. 49.—‘So shall it be at the end of the age.’
Matt. xxiv. 3.—‘What shall be the sign of thy coming [p a r o u s i a ] and of the end of the age?’
Matt. xxviii. 20.—‘Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.’
Heb. ix. 26.—‘But now once in the end of the ages’ [t v n a i w n w n ]
———————————————–

The End

Matt. x. 22.—‘He that endureth to the end shall be saved.’
Matt. xxiv. 6.—‘But the end is not yet’ (Mark xiii. 9; Luke xxi. 9).
Matt. xxiv. 13.—‘But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved’ (Mark xiii. 13).
Matt. xxiv. 14.—‘Then shall the end come.’
1 Cor. i. 8.—‘Who shall also confirm you unto the end.’
1 Cor. x. 11.—‘Upon whom the ends of the ages are come.’
1 Cor. xv. 24.—‘Then cometh the end.’
Heb. iii. 6.—‘Firm unto the end.’
Heb. iii. 14.—‘Stedfast unto the end.’
Heb. vi. 11.—‘Diligence unto the end.’
1 Pet. ii. 7.—‘The end of all things is at hand.’
Rev. ii. 26.—‘He that keepeth my works unto the end.’
—————————————

The Last Times, Days, etc.

1 Tim. iv. 1.—‘In the latter times some shall apostatise’
2 Tim. iii. 1.—‘In the last days perilous times shall come’ .
Heb. i. 2.—‘In these last days [God] hath spoken to us’.
James v. 3.—‘Ye have heaped up treasure in the last days’ .
1 Peter i. 5.—‘Salvation, ready to be revealed in the last .
1 Peter i. 20.—‘Who was manifest in these last times for .
2 Peter iii. 3.—‘There shall come in the last days scoffers’ .
1 John ii. 18.—‘It is the last time’ [hour].
Jude, ver. 18.—‘That there should be mockers in the last time’
Patrick Stone

Hi Duncan,

I agree with much of your article. The resurrection was in 70 AD. I do not believe in any future resurrection, although I define “rapture” very differently than you. To me the rapture is ongoing.

I appreciate the fact that you are premill, but I think you know I still have a very different chronology of end times than yourself.

a) I believe that the millennial binding of Satan is cAD30-cAD67. This would be an Amill version of FP.
b) I believe that the millennial reign of the Saints occurred after the Tribulation (premill), but ended at its culmination. (spring AD70-fall AD70). It corresponded to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem.
c) I believe the Day of the Lord included this millennial reign (destruction of Jerusalem; “the night”) but continues forever (“the morning”…the eternal day of the Lord)
d) If the resurrection is in the past, and the resurrection occurred at the beginning and end of the millennium…then you have yet another resurrection to occur in the future.
e) The rapture is the catching up of the saints to the New Jerusalem after they (Christians) shed their existing earthly body. This is effectively IBD.
f) I absolutely see an end to history and all things. This corruptible earth will some day pass and probably be consumed by the sun. But the new earth will remain.
g) The great tribulation was c66 – 70AD.
h) The end of the age (Old Covenant) was 70AD. The end of this age (New Covenant) is never.

I hope this answered your questions. Blessings…Patrick
sam

Here is the main problem with positing that the full outworking of “the end” encompasses about one literal day. I don’t believe it does. “The end of ALL THINGS” was indeed “at hand” – but, HOW LONG would it take to bring ALL THINGS to their end?

I think Patrick is seeing the issues with “last day” and then, in turn, has us “raised” in a new body on our “last day” of individual existence (i.e., the “last day” of our life here in this body – when we die).

Second, to have “transformation” and “glory to glory” language going on TODAY, you automatically introduce the concept of “beginning and end” – even if on an individual level. That is why CBV has all of that language corporately applied to the “transition generation” ONLY. THEY were transformed, not us. We enter into, not a state of progressive realization, but into “heaven now” and “instant perfection”. In fact, Alan Bondar has us “born” this way, bypassing any need for regenerative faith or any aspect of “being changed” in any way.

ALL of Romans 6-8 is to THEM, not us, so it is reasoned in the CBV. To bring that aspect (Rom 6-8) over into our own time (which is what I do now) immediately introduces the concept of “progressive sanctification” not only for the individual, but for the “body of Christ” as well as a whole. Thus, there is still a “looking forward” (futurism) towards a “consummation” of that which has “begun” in us. It’s either something along these lines (traditionalism), or a complete scrapping of traditional soteriological categories and the ordo salutis (which many FP have done).

Now, you can start seeing my issue a year ago with the problem of infinity. History most definately will have an “end”. Eccl 3.11, Isaiah 41.4 and other verses imply it (the fact that God knows “all” his people when infinity has no “all”) demand it.

Paul speaks proleptically. Writing as if living in the age to come, since those “powers” had already broken in on his own time, giving him a “foretaste” of what is to come (Gentile repentance, redeeming power, salvation, etc.).

FP often say “salvation” was brought in AD 70. Then how do you square Paul: “TODAY is the day of salvation, NOW is the time” (II Cor. 6.2). He wrote this BEFORE AD 70. How? Because the POWERS of salvation that would come to characterize the “age to come” had ALREADY broken in. But, these powers of salvation and conversion would not END in AD 70 – they would be further REALEASED without RESTRAINT (removal of the old covenant) and would come to characterize the age to come (our own time). How long “the end” would last? Nobody but God knows. when would come the “last day” of the end? Nobody knows. Has the resurrection already begun its initial phases? Yes. Christ is the FirstFruits of the resurrection of the dead. He stands in direct relationship to the NATURE in that he forms the FIRST of ALL God’s people to be raised. Has the Presence of God (Parousia) come in a new and unique way? Yes. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

There is a phrase Jesus uses: “God who raises the dead…is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” The souls of Moses and Elijah, of Abraham and Isaac, were already experiencing resurrection life that comes directly from the work of Christ. We even see this in Matthew when “many of them that slept” were awakened. Matthew is no doubt hinting at Daniel 12.2 (see most commentaries). The resurrection is not something that “happened”. It is something that “is happening” – though in stages or phases. By placing “all fullness” and “all FULLfillment” in the past is, for me now, just as extreme as placing ALL fulfillment in the future. The truth is somewhere in the middle (as usual). But, you have to make the courageous journey and leave FP for that to happen. Many have left. Many are pondering (I get your emails, so the Lord be with you).

Blessings.
Patrick Stone

Sam, I think our conclusions are close. Since you have a future resurrection, then do you have an ongoing millennium as Duncan does? I believe the rapture is ongoing, but both resurrections past. (or are you calling the rapture a type of resurrection ?) Just curious…Patrick
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Sam,

In the 25 years or so that I have been a preterist I never was a full preterist. For me the courage has been in saying what I see Scripture teaching even if I get called a heretic for it. There is something very freeing about not having to fit one’s theology into full preterism, orthodox partial preterism, Calvinism or any other “ism” however. It does not make you many friends, however. Todd Dennis has decided I am a full preterist who just won’t admitt to it http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mckenzie-duncan.html.
On the other hand, I was asked to be part of the preterist Bible project and then asked to leave because I was not a full preterist.

I agree that the resurrection of believers began at AD 70. I think we would disagree on the stages however (I believe we get our resurrected body when we die). The following is the impression I have gotten on what you believe. Please correct what is wrong; the last thing I want to do is mischaracterize your position.

When a believer dies today they go to heaven. We wait in heaven for some time as the world gets better and better (postmillennialsim) and then we get our resurrected body and come live on a literal recreated or renewed earth.

Other than it is a crass portrayl ;-), what am I missing?
sam

Patrick,

I see what Paul calls “the resurrection of the dead” (he anastasis ton nekron), or what Jesus called “the resurrection” comes in stages. Regeneration – emptying of Hades – glorious dwelling in heaven (II Cor. 5) – then, finally, glorification of the body on the last day. All of these “aspects” form the single doctrine of “the resurrection of the dead” – God sanctifying the body, soul, and spirit (or, in other words, “wholly”).

As for the Millennium, I still have that in the “transition” generation – thay may change. Both Talbot and I believe Jason have the millennium as the church age. Talbot does not have any “issues” really with me on that matter (since the question of where to place the millennium hardly becomes a dividing issue). I also differ, I think, from Talbot in that the “end of the age” was AD 70. Those were the “last days” (distinguished from the “last day”). This was David Chilton’s position in Paradise Restored and Days of Vengeance (except for the millennium).

With where I am at now, Paul can consider “having been made alive” (aorist), “being made alive” (present) and “shall be raised” (future) as three aspects of the single resurrection. Having been made alive (in Christ’s resurrection corporately, mystically united with him), being made alive (present application of the Spirit to the believer), shall be made alive (glorification of the body). Thus, in I Co. 15 I think Paul is more considering the denial of the last aspect (arguing against an over-realization due to the middle aspect). Paul is saying, “yes, we are presently made alive, and are presently being renewed daily, but we must also affirm that God will raise us all together at the end of history”.

Thus, I see Parousia (the Presence of the Lord in the new covenant), Resurrection, and “End” or “Day of the Lord” (“the day of Christ”) as having these kind of aspects when they arrive in time and space. They cannot be limited to a single “day” or a single “event”. The whole “age to come” (post AD 70 and onwards) is “the Parousia” – “the day of Christ” – the “age of resurrection” (Luke 20). What God is now doing is gathering the Harvest of His people – calling out those who are predestined according to his sovereign purpose and plan before the foundation of the world.

At the end of history, God will make all things conform to what is now “unseen”. The “unseen” (things of the kingdom) will become “seen” where believers and God alone will dwell on earth as it is in heaven.

This is brief outline of where I am at right now. It’s not “partial preterism”. It’s just Preterism which is more or less where the scholars I read are at (more or less, like Perriman, Wright, Beale and others). There are some of my own insights here as well. Little “adjustments”.
sam

Dunk,

I noticed you tried reasoning woth Ed Hassertt. Good luck with that.
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Personally, I would like to the name calling stop. Nothing good comes of it. It is not fitting for a child of God or a serious student of Scripture.
PaulT

Duncan,

Were you going to address your use of Dr. Beale’s chart in light of his comments that scholars differ on the views of the text and resurrection is not explicitly taught in Matthew 24? I believe Dr. Talbot pointed out your either/or claim is a fallacy. That being the case you are begging the question assuming the destruction of Jerusalem and the second “appearance” are indeed the same event.
PaulT

Duncan,

Is there any reason why your view on the resurrection of the dead should not be defined as the transmigration of the soul form one body to another?
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Paul,

In the three of so years I have known you (mostly at CARM) I can not think of one positive interaction I have ever had with you. I for the most part thus simply choose not to inteact with you.

As for the proposition that the connections between 1 Thess 4 and Matt 24-25 that Beale points in his chart are more illusionary than real, I find that a remote possibility. If Dr. Talbot or anyone else wants show how the connections are not legitimate I will be glad to listen. Personally, I have not seen many sections of Scripture that have as many connections. The onus is on those who say the connections are not really there, not on me. For those who are not familier with it, the chart is here.
http://books.google.com/books?id=zlyPH_3Pvl4C&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=beale+1+thess+4+Matthew+24&source=bl&ots=KKv-DKOeql&sig=Nty2XblAUvwI6sFn0SG9JptXJxk&hl=en&ei=uN3WTeviEo_BtgfO3P2qBw
PaulT

Duncan,

It is interesting rather than addressing the simple question asked you begin by pointing to past interactions. Perhaps your feeling about those past interactions is based on me pointing you dishonestly represented Dr. Gentry’s view as attested to by him. And in fact, I’ve consistently pointed out your reluctance to answer questions, as appears to be the case here. Be that as it may, I won’t hold it against you.

Nevertheless, I’m not sure what you mean by “illusionary than real”. My question goes to your representation of those charts versus what Dr. Beale offers in actual commentary. You consistently depict those charts as the only possible interpretation of 1 Thess 4 and Matt 24. However as pointed out Dr. Beale acknowledges there are other views by other scholars. In addition to that Dr. Beale concedes resurrection is not explicitly taught in Matthew 24.

I’m not sure how you figure the onus is on anyone to present to you an explanation as to why those two texts are not necessarily dealing with the same event. As pointed out Dr. Beale admits this fact, a fact which you seem to consistently overlook. So rather than attempting to side step the issue, face it head on.

I’ve already asked you about the term “gather” which is the crux of the connection Dr. Beale makes with 1 Thess 4 and Matt 24. Literary use of angels, trumpets and cosmic events associated with an act of God hardly tie the events together. Therefore, for you to support your assertion which the issue is an either or choice it seems to me you need a lot more than Dr. Beale’s chart because he explained in his commentary his view isn’t universally held by scholars. Do you have any evidence from anywhere that supports the notion “gather” means bringing a dead body back to life? A simple yes or no will suffice. IOW, if your claim is based solely on implication then you should acknowledge that whenever you pull out his chart. That would be the scholarly course, would it not?

Oh yeah, were you going to answer my question as to your view on the resurrection of the dead? Is it fair to categorize your view as transmigration of the soul from one body to another?
Patrick Stone

Duncan said “In the three of so years I have known you (mostly at CARM) I can not think of one positive interaction I have ever had with you. I for the most part thus simply choose not to inteact with you.”

Okay…I’m not the only one. Thanks Duncan.
Patrick Stone

Hmmmm, probably just coincidence?

1 The Lord descends from heaven 1The 4:16 Mat 24:30
2 Angels present 1The 4:16 Mat 24:31
3 Trumpet Sounded 1The 4:16 Mat 24:31
4 God’s people gathered 1The 4:16-17 Mat 24:31
5 The Day of the Lord / That Day 1The 5:2 Mat 24:36
6 Comes as a Thief in the night 1The 5:2,4 Mat 24:43
7 False Message of hope 1The 5:3 Mat 24:11,24
8 As Travail upon a woman 1The 5:3 Mat 24:8
9 Sudden destruction of the wicked 1The 5:3 Mat 24:39,51
10 The elect exhorted to watch 1The 5:4,6 Mat 24:42,43
11 The wicked drunken 1The 5:7 Mat 24:38,49
12 The wicked suffer his wrath 1The 5:9 Mat 24:51
Patrick Stone

Paul T, in the very first part of his article he states:

I see a lot of people get into very intense debates on the nature of the resurrection. I tend to stay out of these debates for the simple reason that I am not sure. I tend to lean toward the IBD concept of the resurrection, although I also see corporate aspects taught as well.

That should answer your question on the transmigration of souls.
PaulT

Patrick,

Thank you for your thoughts, but no it doesn’t answer my question. I’m asking him if it would be fair to characterize the concept he “tends” to learn toward as transmigration of the soul from one body to another.

Regarding Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4, I think if you go back into the OT you will find similar language, God descending, trumpets sounding, angels, etc. used for most acts which are described as divine acts of God. No one is questioning that both the destruction of 2TJ is a divine act or that the resurrection of the dead is a divine act. That is a moot point.

However, the very germane point is the subject matter being discussed within the two independent texts, which is why I asked about the term “gather” as 1 Thess 4 is clearly about bringing dead people back to life. Although as pointed out, Duncan’s own expert the concept of bringing dead people back to life is NOT explicitly taught in Matt 24.
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Patrick wrote,

Hmmmm, probably just coincidence?

1 The Lord descends from heaven 1The 4:16 Mat 24:30
2 Angels present 1The 4:16 Mat 24:31
3 Trumpet Sounded 1The 4:16 Mat 24:31
4 God’s people gathered 1The 4:16-17 Mat 24:31
5 The Day of the Lord / That Day 1The 5:2 Mat 24:36
6 Comes as a Thief in the night 1The 5:2,4 Mat 24:43
7 False Message of hope 1The 5:3 Mat 24:11,24
8 As Travail upon a woman 1The 5:3 Mat 24:8
9 Sudden destruction of the wicked 1The 5:3 Mat 24:39,51
10 The elect exhorted to watch 1The 5:4,6 Mat 24:42,43
11 The wicked drunken 1The 5:7 Mat 24:38,49
12 The wicked suffer his wrath 1The 5:9 Mat 24:51

Hey Patrick,

I went back to look at 1 Thess. 4 and to see if I was missing something. I found more connections with AD 70, not less. First it says the Lord would bring with him “those who sleep in Jesus” (1 Thess. 4:14). This is shown in Rev. 19:14 (Jesus coming with his people and/or angels), something almost all preterists put at AD 70. Then you look at 1 Thess. 4:15, this happens at the “parousia.” That is not a separate event.

Now Gentry says there are two different parousias in Matt. 24-25 (DeMar disagrees with him on this). He sees the one in Matthew 24:27 as being an AD 70 metaphorical judgment coming and the one Matthew 24:37, 39 as the actual Second Advent at the end of time.

Looking at Beale’s chart with Gentry’s position in mind (that everything before Matthew 24:36 is referring to AD 70, while everything after verse 36 is referring to the end of time Second Advent), it would appear that Paul starts out in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 talking about the AD 70 coming and then suddenly shifts in chapter 5 to the end of time Second Advent. Gentry, however, believes that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the resurrection at the end of time, so the parallels between the two passages immediately conflict with his position. Also the labor pains of Matt. 24:8 (which correspond to 1 Thessalonians 5:3) do not fit Gentry’s sequence. Because they come before Matt 24:36, they should be talking about AD 70. Everything else in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-7, however, aligns with post Matthew 24:36 items (and thus should refer to a future coming). It gets pretty confusing trying to pin the tail on the two supposed comings.

As for Beale’s statement “although Matthew does not explicitly mention the idea of resurrection, he implies it in the phrase ‘gather the elect’ in 24:31 ….” I see nothing particularly troublesome with it. Lets assume that the gathering is not a picture of the resurrection (and no, I am not saying that the word for “gathering” means “resurrection”), Does that mean Jesus never talked about the resurrection in the Olivet Discourse? And if he did, where? If I remember correctly, I think Paul has gone so far as to say that Jesus never talked about his supposed end of time second advent in the Olivet Discourse. You might ask him if he still takes that position.
PaulT

Duncan,

You write,

“I went back to look at 1 Thess. 4 and to see if I was missing something. I found more connections with AD 70, not less. First it says the Lord would bring with him “those who sleep in Jesus” (1 Thess. 4:14). This is shown in Rev. 19:14 (Jesus coming with his people and/or angels), something almost all preterists put at AD 70.”

Where does Dr. Beale’s chart deal with text from the book of Revelation? Isn’t you point Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 dealing with the same subject?

You continue,

“Does that mean Jesus never talked about the resurrection in the Olivet Discourse? And if he did, where?”

Yes, that would mean Jesus never spoke of the resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24. I assume your following question goes to where in the Gospels outside of the Olivet Discourse did Jesus address the resurrection of the dead? Perhaps you might be interested in this passage.

“35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:35-44

Based on this text wherein Jesus explicitly addresses bringing dead people back to life, (I don’t think you will find a scholar suggesting resurrection is implied here) Christ Jesus points out that all those who have been drawn by the Father will be raised on the Last Day.

Now, Duncan, if the Last Day occurred 2000 years ago how is it you claim to be a Christian? Because the only way to be a Christian, based on this very explicit passage, is to be in Christ. And the only way to Christ as the text explicitly states is to be drawn by the Father. However, according to your paradigm the day in which those drawn to Christ were raised occurred 2000 years ago which means, based on what you advocate, since AD70 no man has been drawn by the Father and therefore can’t be in Christ.

BTW, where you going to answer if transmigration of the soul from one body to another is a fair characterization of your view of resurrection?
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Paul,

I have already said that I am not sure on the exact nature of the resurrection. Just make up your own conclusions and then pin them on me. That is what you do anyway.

What I am not going to do is assume the nature of the resurrection and then force the scriptures related to it into that box. That is, I am attempting to look at the time texts of the resurrection independent of a preconceived notion of the nature of the resurrection. When I do that I keep seeing it as happening, or more correctly beginning, at the AD 70 end of the age.

For example, the court seated for the resurrection and judgment at the Ad 70 defeat of the little horn (Dan. 7:7-11, 23-27). This would happen at the AD 70 end of the age attack of the king of the North against Jerusalem, Dan. 11:40-12:7 (this is what Jesus is drawing from in the Olivet Discourse, cf. Matt. 24:6-16; it is also what Paul is drawing from in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, e.g., compare 2 Thess. 2:4 with Dan. 11:36-37). The time for the dead to be judged (i.e., the time of the resurrection) would happen at the AD 70 destruction of those who were morally destroying the Land, Rev. 11:15-18).

By the way, for anyone interested, I go into detail on Daniel 7 and 11-12 in my book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. The book of Daniel is the foundation of NT prophecy. Preterists would do well to be more informed on Daniel.
PaulT

Duncan,

Please…
“I have already said that I am not sure on the exact nature of the resurrection. Just make up your own conclusions and then pin them on me. That is what you do anyway.”

You wrote, “I see a lot of people get into very intense debates on the nature of the resurrection. I tend to stay out of these debates for the simple reason that I am not sure. I tend to lean toward the IBD concept of the resurrection, although I also see corporate aspects taught as well.” I don’t see the self-same body as an option you listed. Taking your pick of two views ground in paganism doesn’t seem like much of an option.

You continue,

“What I am not going to do is assume the nature of the resurrection and then force the scriptures related to it into that box.”

No, what you are going to do is deny the clear explicit texts which proclaim the self-same body will be raised and exchange that for erroneous conclusions based on texts whose genre allows for immense speculation. And in fact as has been demonstrated you aren’t exactly forthright about the views of the scholars whom you quote. For example you write,

“the court seated for the resurrection and judgment at the Ad 70 defeat of the little horn (Dan. 7:7-11, 23-27). This would happen at the AD 70 end of the age attack of the king of the North against Jerusalem, Dan. 11:40-12:7 (this is what Jesus is drawing from in the Olivet Discourse, cf. Matt. 24:6-16; it is also what Paul is drawing from in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, e.g., compare 2 Thess. 2:4 with Dan. 11:36-37). The time for the dead to be judged (i.e., the time of the resurrection) would happen at the AD 70 destruction of those who were morally destroying the Land, Rev. 11:15-18).”

What the reader should note is that Duncan is primarily quoting apocalyptic passages, (the exception is his question begging regarding Paul’s source material for 1 Thess 4), that are notorious in dealing with symbolism and as such are highly questionable as to their definitive meaning. He eschews didactic passages which explicitly state, “the Lord Jesus Christ,…will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body” Phil 3:20,21 and “we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for…, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.” Rom 8:23, 24 in exchange for highly speculative texts. I’m thinking there is something amiss in Duncan’s hermeneutical principles.

You conclude,

“By the way, for anyone interested, I go into detail on Daniel 7 and 11-12 in my book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. The book of Daniel is the foundation of NT prophecy. Preterists would do well to be more informed on Daniel.”

I apologize in advance if you find this offensive, but really. If you can’t tackle basic didactic texts why should anyone think you got the apocalyptic texts which are filled with hyperbole and symbolism correct? I guess you don’t adhere to the basic concept of allowing the clear texts to guide your understanding of what Scripture is conveying.

I trust all can see the unaddressed questions continuing to mount.
http://drkellynelsonbirks.com Dr. Birks

Duncan,

You wrote…

“By the way, for anyone interested, I go into detail on Daniel 7 and 11-12 in my book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. The book of Daniel is the foundation of NT prophecy. Preterists would do well to be more informed on Daniel.”

I’m interested. Amazon or another way of getting it?

Dr. B…
Hal1

Hey Dr. B, you better be careful. Your book on Daniel’s 70th week is about 110 pages, according to Amazon.

I’m not sure, but if I remember correctly from the old SGP days when Duncan was writing his book, he has 2 volumes, each about 400 pages! (I may be exaggerating). Don’t strain your back. Make Kari carry them!! LOL
Hal1

Hey Dr. B,

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Antichrist-Second-Coming-Preterist-Examination/dp/1615790373/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1306098614&sr=1-1

Google books has a free “preview” of some of the books at: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZL89vmcBUJwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=duncan+mckenzie&hl=en&ei=T3zZTc6kC6Xj0QGFtqD8Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

Hey Dr. B,

It is pretty much through Amazon. I would be interested in the book you wrote that talks about the resurrection. How about sending me that one and I will send you mine. Send me an email with your mailing address and I will send you mine (Duncan@peoplepc.com). As to Hal’s slanderous comment on the length of my book, he is quite wrong (it is a little longer :-) Volume I is 468 pages and volume II (which is not out yet) will be about a 100 pages longer. The two volumes represent about 12 years worth of work. Here are the contents of Volume I.

I. Introduction

II. Preliminary Considerations Regarding the Book of Daniel and the Coming of God’s Kingdom

III. The Fall of the Magnificent Human Image at the Establishment of the Kingdom of God (Daniel 2)

IV. The Little Horn of the Fourth Beast (Daniel 7)

V. The King of the North and the End of the Age (Daniel 11:36-45)

VI. The Great Tribulation and the End of the Age (Daniel 12:1-13)

VII. The Day of the Lord in the Old Testament

VIII. The Day of the Lord in the New Testament

IX. The Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2)

Appendix A: Why I Disagree with the Full Preterist Paradigm

Volume II exclusivley focuses on the book of Revelation. Here are its contents.

I. The Subject of Revelation
II. How to Interpret Revelation
III. The Beast From the Sea (Revelation 13:1-10)
IV. The Land Beast/False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-18)
V. The Beast and the Harlot (Revelation 17)
VI. The Beast and the Destruction of Babylon (Revelation 18)
VII. The Marriage of the Lamb and Destruction of the Beast at the Second Coming (Revelation 19)

VIII. The Millennium I: Preliminary Considerations
IX. The Millennium II (Revelation 20)
X. The New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 21-22)
XI. Israel and the Gog and Magog Invasion
XII. Where Are We Now?
http://www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com Duncan

One more point. The book is a little long, but people say it is very accessable, very readable. Much of it is stuff you will not find elsewhere. See reviews here: http://www.amazon.com/Antichrist-Second-Coming-Preterist-Examination/product-reviews/1615790373/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Duncan

Hey Sam,

You had hinted that your millennial position may end up changing. I do not think many would say a millennium that ended at AD 70 (with Satan destroyed in the lake of fire at that time Rev. 20:7-10) is all that orthodox. Anyway, here is something on “the war” (Rev. 16:14; 19:19; 20:8). I think it is one of the reasons you rejected Russell’s position on the millennium (that it began at AD 70, what I call “premillennial preterism”). This post is obviously more of an article than a post. You may decide you want to put it in that way (or not). It may not even fit. Here goes.

ARE REVELATION 19:11-21 AND 20:7-10 SHOWING THE SAME BATTLE?

The call of the birds to feast on those who set themselves against the Lord in Revelation 19:17-18 is similar to the call to scavenging birds in Ezekiel 39:17-20 at the end of the battle of Gog and Magog. Because of this, some connect the confrontation between Christ and Antichrist in Revelation 19:11-21 with the war of Gog and Magog that happens at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20:7-10 (which also alludes to Ezekiel 38-39). This question has important ramifications for the sequence of Revelation 19-20. If Revelation 19 is showing the Second Advent (something almost everyone can agree on except for partial preterists, who say it is a metaphorical judgment coming of Jesus)[1.] and if the events of Revelation 20 chronologically follow the events of chapter 19, then the millennium begins after the Second Coming and a premillennial sequence is shown. If Revelation 20 is a recapitulation, however, (a backing up of the narrative to AD 30), then an amillennial or post millennial position is supported. I shall discuss the millennium in the next chapter, but will digress a little on this issue here.

One of the evidences given for the “recapitulation theory” is that the battles of Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 (as well as the battle prophesied in Rev. 16:14-16) are all referred to as “the war” (Rev. 16:14; 19:19; 20:8).[2.] While it is true that all three of these battles are designated as the war (and that Revelation 16:14 and 19:19 are referencing the same battle that happens at the parousia), there are significant differences between the wars in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10. These differences indicate that they are not the same battle. For example, the battle of Revelation 19 happens at the time of the parousia; in contrast, there is no coming of God shown in the battle of Revelation 20:7-10.

Osborne, in contrasting the battles of Revelation 19:17-21 and 20:7-10, writes the following:

“The battle of 16:14-16 and 19:17-21 was led by the beast, this one [Rev. 20:7-10] by Satan. The army of the first [in Rev. 19:17-21] was destroyed by the sword from the mouth of the Lord, this army by fire coming down from heaven [in Rev. 20:9]. At the end of that battle, the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire; after this one, Satan himself is cast into the lake of fire [Rev. 20:10]. In other words, the details are sufficiently different to warrant the view of a second battle rather than a recapitulation of the first.”[3.]

In evaluating the proposal that the battles of Rev. 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 are the same, one has to be careful of a theory that relies too heavily on the nuances of John’s grammar (as the recapitulation theory tends to do). The Greek of Revelation is far from perfect (how intentional this is, is debated).[4.] Ladd describes John’s Greek as “rough and harsh, with many grammatical and syntactical irregularities.”[5.] As an example of this, in Revelation 13:10b John’s grammar is so irregular that Aune calls it “impossible Greek.”[6.] Thus, the fact that Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:8-10 both use the term the war does not in and of itself mean they are referring to the same conflict; other factors must be taken into account.

ONE BATTLE HAPPENS RIGHT BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM;
THE OTHER BATTLE HAPPENS RIGHT AFTER THE MILLENNIUM

Because of the differences between the two wars, I see the battles of Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 as referring to different conflicts. Note, that the battle of Gog and Magog is explicitly said to be at the end of the millennium

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is like the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:7-8

In contrast, the aftermath of the defeat of the beast and false prophet (the one who made people take the mark of the beast, Rev. 13:11-18) is alluded to in the discussion of the beginning of the millennium.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4

That those who had been killed by the beast come alive at the beginning of the millennium indicates that they went through the great tribulation of AD 67-70 (Rev. 13:4-18). The tribulation is ended by the coming of God/Christ and then the full establishment of God’s kingdom as the millennium begins (Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 11:7-18; 19:11-20:4). That puts the defeat of the beast and false prophet (in the war of Rev. 19:11-21) right after the tribulation and right before the millennium. To say the beast and false prophet are not defeated till after the millennium (again, the Gog and Magog war is explicitly said to happen after the millennium, Rev. 20:7-10) makes no sense. First, they are not even mentioned in that war! Second, it would mean that the millennium culminates with the great tribulation.

In the Revelation 19 battle, the beast and the false prophet are the chief opponents; at the end of the conflict they are thrown into the lake of fire (while Satan is bound and put in the abyss, Rev. 19:19-20:3). In the Gog and Magog war of Revelation 20, Satan is the opponent (having been released from the abyss, Rev. 20:7-8). The beast and the false prophet are nowhere to be seen in the Gog and Magog war. This is because it happens at the end of the millennium and they were put in the lake of fire at the AD 70 beginning of the millennium (Rev. 19:20). This proposed sequence is supported by the fact that at the end of the Gog and Magog war, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, the beast and the false prophet are there waiting for him (Rev. 20:10). Bøe has the following comments on this:

“The ‘Satanic trinity’ is reunited after “a thousand years”, but now in the lake of fire. [The] NIV makes this explicit by translating: “. . . where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.” The Greek does not express this in a verbal clause, but only in a non-verbal clause.”[7.]

If the battles of Revelation 19:11-21 and the Gog and Magog war of Revelation 20:7-10 were the same conflict one would expect to see Satan, the beast and the false prophet all to be thrown into the lake of fire at the same time; this is not what Revelation shows. I like Gentry’s summation of some problems he has with the two wars being the same.

“If John had wanted us to understand recapitulation rather than sequence in this passage [Rev. 19-20], John “did us no favor” by: (a) recasting the beast and false prophet (19:20) as Gog and Magog (20:8); (b) inserting a thousand year period between the two battles (20:2–5); (c) representing the period of Christian history from the first century to the end as “a short time” (12:12) and as “a thousand years” (20:2–6) . . . (d) offering no hint that Satan is bound before Rev 19:11ff while emphasizing his being bound before Rev 20:7ff; and (e) telling us that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire when the beast and false prophet already are (20:10).”[8.]

It is important to note that there is no coming of God involved in the Revelation 20:7-10 battle. There is the fire of God’s judgment descending from heaven at this time (of the end of the millennium, v. 9; cf. Ezek. 38:22; 39:6), but no Second Coming. Looking at Ezekiel 38-39 (which is what Revelation 20:7-10 is drawing from), there is similarly no coming of God shown. This is in contrast to the battle of Revelation 19:11-21 which happens at the parousia. Lastly, the battle of Revelation 19:11-21 happens at the time of the destruction of physical Israel (the destruction of harlot Babylon, Rev. 19:1-8). In contrast, the Gog and Magog war results in the deliverance of physical Israel (Ezek. 39:21-29).[9.]

THE DOUBLE USE OF AN EZEKIELIAN MOTIF

Some say that because the battles of Revelation 19 and 20 both use material from Ezekiel 38-39 that they must be referring to the same conflict. Bøe, however, concludes that while both Revelation 19:17-21 and 20:7-10 do contain allusions to Ezekiel 38-39 “the battle recorded in 20:7-10 [is] a different battle from that recorded in 19:11-21.”[10.] He answers those who say that the allusions to Ezekiel 38-39 found in Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 must mean that they are the same conflict in the following manner:

“It is hard to accept this argumentation, it would not give much meaning to claim that the double use of the theme of measuring the temple [in Rev. 11:1-2 and 21:15-21] implies that the two accounts are actually the same. On the contrary, the measuring of the temple in 11:1-2 is not the same incident as that in 21:15-21, nobody ever claimed it was, even though both allude to Ezekiel’s measuring of the temple, Ezekiel 40-48. Similarly we should not suppose that the very fact of a double use of one Ezekielian motif proves that John spoke of the same event. Other factors must determine that question; the double use of one pre-text or motif is by itself not decisive.”[11.]

To summarize, the arguments for the recapitulation hypothesis, that Revelation 19:11-21 and 20:7-10 are two descriptions of the same battle, are not convincing. The differences between the two battles outweigh any evidence in favor of recapitulation and indicate that they are two different conflicts. There are certainly recapitulations in Revelation—chapter 20 is just not one of them. Thus, the battle of Revelation 19:11-21 happens at the AD 70 parousia right before the millennium begins; in contrast, we are explicitly told that the battle of Revelation 20:7-10 happens at the end of the millennium. This is why the beast and false prophet are nowhere to be found in the Gog and Magog war.
Allow me to make one last point related to the issue of the sequence of Revelation 19-20. The sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4 parallels that of Daniel 7:21-22.

I was watching and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:21-22

Daniel 7 clearly shows a premillennial sequence; it is right after the AD 70 coming of God to defeat of the Antichrist (the little horn) that the saints possess the kingdom.[12.] This parallels the sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4. It is right after the AD 70 coming of the Word of God to defeat the Antichrist (the individual beast, Rev. 19:11-21) that the saints possess the kingdom (as the millennium begins; Rev. 20:1-4; cf. Dan. 7:7-11). Notice how Daniel 7 shows God’s people having gone through the great tribulation just prior to possessing the kingdom (i.e., the little horn prevailing against the saints in verse 21; cf. v. 25). It is the same in Revelation 20:4; one of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of those who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast; that hardly fits an AD 30 beginning of the millennium. As I have mentioned, this is a reference to their having gone through to the great tribulation of AD 67-70 (cf. Rev. 13:7-18); they had been killed by the Antichrist. Their coming back to life speaks of the resurrection of believers; it began at AD 70 (cf. Dan. 12:1-7; Rev. 11:3-18).

Endnotes:

1. Many partial preterists say Revelation 19:11-21 is not the Second Advent but an AD 70 judgment coming of Jesus. They look for the Second Advent to happen at the end of time. If this is true then Revelation does not show the Second Advent. Partial preterists say the Second Advent is shown in Rev. 20:9, but it is not. Revelation 20:7-10 is based on Ezekiel 38-39—neither shows a coming of God. For the partial preterist to suggest that the mention of God’s judgment of fire in Revelation 20:9 is the Second Advent is grasping at straws. It would mean that the Second Advent is shown in only one verse in Revelation, and even that verse barely contains an allusion to it!

2. I am not arguing against the existence of recapitulations in Revelation; I just don’t think Revelation 20 is one of them.

3. Grant R. Osborne, Revelation, 713.

4. For a discussion of the irregular Greek of Revelation see G.K. Beale, The Book of Revelation, 100-107. Beale thinks “the overall purpose of these Septuagintalisms, stylistic Semitisms, and awkward OT allusions was probably to create a ‘biblical’ effect on the hearer and hence, to show the solidarity of the writing with that of the OT . . .” (pg. 103).

5. Ladd, A Commentary on the Revelation of John, 7.

6. David Aune, Revelation 6-16, 750.

7. Sverre Bøe, Gog and Magog: Ezekiel 38-39 as Pre-text for Revelation 19:17-21 and 20:7-10, WUNT 2/135 (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2001), 341.

8. Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., “Recapitulation v. Progression in Rev. 19 and 20,” Unpublished paper (2010). Gentry is responding to the following from R. Fowler White:

“If John really expected us to interpret the revolts in Revelation 19–20 as different events, he certainly did us no favor by describing both revolts in language, images and plots that are reminiscent of one and the same event in Ezekiel’s prophecy.”
R. Fowler White, “Making Sense of Rev 20:1-10?” JETS 37:4, 1994. 545.

9. It is a mistake to try and spiritualize Israel here. The Israel that is delivered in Ezekiel is the Israel that had been sent into the nations at AD 70 (Ezek. 39:21-29; cf. Luke 21:20-24). It was physical Israel that had been banished to the nations, not God’s new covenant people.

10. Bøe, 344.

11. Ibid 376.

12. Beale (who believes that Revelation 20 is a recapitulation) tries to dismiss the sequence shown in Daniel 7 in the following manner.

“Some contend that 19:11-20:6 is sequential because it follows the sequential chronological pattern of Daniel 7 (esp. 7:11-27) so that the destruction of the beast is followed by the reigning of the saints. But Daniel 7 itself exhibits a clear structure of recapitulation, repeating narratives about the persecution and kingdom of the saints (vv 8 and 13-14, vv 19-22, vv 23-25, 27), as well as the judgment of the beast (vv 9-11, 26).” G.K. Beale, The Book of Revelation, 982.

Beale almost seems to be trying to confuse the issue by looking at Daniel 7 as a whole. He is quite right that there are recapitulations in Daniel 7 (see my discussion of the sequence of this chapter in volume I). The sequence of Daniel 7:21-22, however, is quite clear—and there is no recapitulation in these two verses. The little horn is defeated by the coming of God and then the saints possess the kingdom. This is paralleled in Revelation where the individual beast is defeated by the coming of the Word of God (Rev. 19:11-21) and then the saints possess the kingdom as the millennium begins (Rev. 20:1-4).
http://danielsvisionsrevealed.posterous.com E. Duty

Duncan,
I would like to have your thoughts on the following discoveries I found in the book of Daniel.

Daniel 9 Corrects the Anno Domini Dating System

The historical dating of the birth of Jesus Christ

The Anno Doimini dating system was devised in 525AD by Dionysius Exiguus who used it to compute the date of the Easter festival and identify the several Easters in his table, but did not use it to date any historical event. His system was to replace the Diocletian era that had been used in an old Easter table because he did not wish to continue the memory of tyrants who persecuted Christians. The last year of the old table, Diocletian 247, was immediately followed by the first year of his table, 532AD. When he devised his table, Julian calendar years were identified by naming the consuls who head office that year–he himself stated that the “present year” was “the consulship of Probus Junior”, which was 525 years “since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ”. thus, Dionysius implied that Jesus’ incarnation occurred 525 years earlier without stating the specific year during which his birth or conception occurred.*

According to Doggett, “Although scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before 1AD, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating”. According to Matthew 2:1 and Matthew 2:16, King Herod the Great was alive when Jesus was born, and ordered the Massacre of the Innocents in response to his birth. Blackburn and holford-Strevens fix King Herod’s death shortly before Passover in 4BC, and say that those who accept the story of the Massacre of the Innocents sometimes associate the star that led the Biblical Magi with the planetary conjunction of 15 September 7BC or Halley’s comet of 12BC(less likely since comets were usually considered bad omens); even historians who do not accept the Massacre accept the birth under Herod as a tradition older than the written gospels.*

The Gospel of Luke states that Jesus was conceived during the reign of Herod the Great (Luke 1:5) before 4BC while also stating that Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria and carried out the census of the Roman provinces of Syria and Iudaea. (Luke 2: 1-3) The Jewish historian Josephus, in his Antiquities of the Jews (ca. AD93), indicates that Cyrenius governorship of Syria began in 6AD, and that the census occurred sometime between 6-7AD, which is incompatible with a conception prior to 4BC, thus making Luke’s chronology not only incompatible with that of the author of Matthew, but also internally contradictory within the Gospel of Luke. On this point, Blackburn and Holford-Strevens state that “St. Luke raises greater difficulty…Most critics discard Luke”. Some scholars rely on John 8:57: “thou are not yet fifty years old, to place Christ’s birth circa 18BC.*

Daniel’s dating of the life of Jesus Christ

The Anno Domini dating system uses a very simple time line. Dionysius Exiguus designated 1BC as the year Jesus was born and 1AD as the year Jesus turned one year old and it continues to the time Jesus is crucified, at thirty-three years of age. His next important date is 70AD when Jerusalem and King Solomon’s temple are destroyed by the Romans and it continues on to the present time.

Since the time I was a young man I believed the Anno Domini dating system was probably off, one way or the other, by at least three or four years simply because it was devised five centuries after the birth of Jesus Christ. Over the last fifty years, I have read the book of Daniel many times, and especially Chapter Nine dealing with Daniel’s vision of the seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:25-26 says …”the prince shall be seven weeks, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”.

Recently, after reading that the temple would be destroyed seven weeks times seven or forty-nine years after the Messiah was cut off, it occurred to me, if I subtract forty-nine years from 70AD, the year the temple was destroyed, I should get 33AD which also would be Jesus’ age at the time of his crucifixion since the dating system is based on his life. The answer to my math problem was not thirty-three but twenty-one. Dionysius Exiguus dating system is saying Jesus was crucified in 21AD at he age of twenty-one years old. The Gospels tells us Jesus began his ministry at the age of thirty and ministered for three years. It surprised me that the date Dionysius picked to represent the year the temple was destroyed was wrong by twelve years. Jesus was crucified in 33AD and the temple was destroyed forty-nine years latter, that would add up to 82 AD. The next problem with Dionysius Exiguus dating system, if you count back form 21AD to 1BC you discover Jesus was would be twelve years old in 1BC, this means the birth of Jesus is also wrong by twelve years.

The true time line of the life of Jesus, according to Daniel, is he was born in 12BC which should now be designated 1BC, 11BC should be 1AD and so on until you come to 33AD the year Jesus was crucified at age 33. Now you add Daniel’s seven week time seven or forty-nine years to 33AD and you get the correct year (82AD) the temple was destroyed.

The historical view above says that Halley’s Comet was sighted over Jerusalem in 12BC, the same year we now know Jesus was born, do you think it might be the same bright star the Magi followed in search of the promised “King of the Jews”.

These errors in the current dating system was found 1,500 plus years too late to change now. If you would like to know the true dates , add twelve years to any date in the present system to know what year it really is “in the year of our Lord”.

Examples:

2011 would really be 2023

2012 would really be 2024

2000 would really be 2012 So much for the Mayans end of the world prediction, I guess we missed it. But, for some, the tech bubble was the end of the World

1963 would really be 1975

1941 would really be 1953

1776 would really be 1788

1492 would really be 1504

THE SECOND COMING OF THE SEVENTH KING/LITTLE HORN

All Christians are waiting for the second coming of Jesus, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This event will happen at the end of the seven year tribulation period and begin his thousand year reign on earth. Many Christians believe that the rapture is so near that the anti-Christ may already be living among us and waiting for the rapture so he can reveal himself to the world. I was one who also believed this, but now I believe this is not the correct scenario. The rapture of the church is the beginning of the seven year tribulation period. The unbelievers that will be left behind will witness the second coming of the little horn/seventh king who will now have a few new titles such as the beast/the eighth king, last but not least the anti-Christ.

In Rev. 17:10-11, John says, “There are seven kings: five are fallen and one is, the other is not yet come: and when he comes, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is one of the seven, and goes into perdition.”

We know from John that five kings have fallen and the one that lived in John’s time has also fallen. This leaves only the seventh and eighth kings. The seventh king could come anytime after the sixth king and before the tribulation period. He could have lived anytime between 90AD and the present, or is his time still in the future? John says the eighth king of the tribulation period will be one of the previous seven kings. If the seventh king has lived in the past, why did the world not recognize him for who he really was?

Daniel 7:8 – “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and mouth speaking great things.”

The seventh king’s life story can be found in Daniel 7:1-21. Daniel’s vision takes him into the future where he sees the little horn. I discovered his identity after I learned the meaning of “the three horns that were plucked up by the roots.” Many who read Chapter Seven believe that the little horn caused the demise of the three horns and he took their power from them but I believe this is not what is happening. The little horn was a leader of a county, the leaders of two other counties joined with him in an effort to gain world domination but they failed. Because they were defeated, the victors reduced their military power to self-defense forces. The little horn (A. Hitler) is the main leader of the three horns (Germany, Italy and Japan) also known as the axis powers.

Daniel 7:11 –“I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

I believe Russia was the first ally to enter Berlin and piece together Adolf Hitler’s last hours of life. He was in his bunker when he took cyanide capsules and then shot himself in the head, his henchmen then took his body out of the bunker, placed it in a hole and burned it.

Daniel 7:21 – “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the

Saints, and prevailed against them.”

Daniel’s vision takes him beyond the twentieth century and World War II and he now sees the same horn that he just watched die and his body burned is now reigning as the eighth king/anti-Christ/A. Hitler in the seven year tribulation period.

Revelation 13:1-“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw

a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horn,

and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name

of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2-“And the beast which I saw was like unto a

Leopard, and feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth

as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power,

and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 – “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

Revelation13:4 – “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

If we go to the beginning of Chapter Seven we can now identify the other four beasts.

Daniel 7:3 – “And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.”

Daniel 7:4 – “The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

Daniel’s vision takes him into the future where he sees the first beast, the lion (England) with eagle wings (America) was part of the British Empire. And further into the future he sees eagle wings (America) win her independence from England, but even later he sees them become close allies. And the lion (England) was given a man’s heart. I believe this is the leadership of Winston Churchill.

Daniel 7:5 – “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, arise, devour much flesh.

The second beast, a bear (Russia) is also an ally at that time in history. The three ribs in its mouth represent countries, like Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and East Germany, carved out of Germany that Russia absorbed at the end of World War II. The bear (Russia) is told to arise, devour much flesh, which it did under the leadership of Joseph Stalin, killing hundreds of thousands of the enemies of the allies but also killing millions of his own countrymen. These three countries became known as “The Big Three”.

Daniel 7:6 – “After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”

The third beast, a leopard, represents all the other minor countries around the world that joined the allies in the effort to defeat the axes powers.

Daniel 7:7 – “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before; and it had ten horns.”

The fourth beast is a description of twentieth century conventional warfare and destruction. And almost as an after thought, Daniel says, “it had ten horns” But these ten horns (countries) are not united in a single purpose. Three of the ten will join together as the axis powers. The other seven horns (countries with military power) plus others will join together to form the allied powers.

I believe a sign that the rapture/tribulation is drawing near will be when you see these countries Germany, Italy and Japan start to regain their power to make war. Daniel 7:24 and Revelation 13:1, are taking place in the tribulation period and you can see that the three horns are equal to the other seven horns and they give their regained power to the eighth king/antichrist/A. Hitler.

2011
Eudene

To Duncan:
I have read your book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. I am wondering whether you are saying that the 2nd coming and resurrection happened in 70 ad and that there will be no future physical coming of Jesus to earth or if you are just saying that the Bible doesn’t tell us how the Millennium will end and whether or not Jesus will come physically at that time.

Also, I was wondering when Vol. II will be coming out.

Eudene
duncan

Hi Eudene,

I am in the editing process on volume two. Maybe out in three months? It should be around 550 pages. Together with volume one, that makes for 1.000 pages (and twelve years worth of work). Not bad for an “untutored” lay person. Did you enjoy volume one?

As to what exactly happens after Satan is thrown in the lake of fire, i am not sure. i do know i only see one coming of Jesus in Revelation and Daniel (2, 7, 9, 11;36-12:13). i see the new heaven and earth stuff as refering to the post ad 70 spiritual order of this world (Isa. 65-66; 2pet. 3:10-13; Rev. 21-22), not a new or physically renewed planet. here is something from volume two that relates to your question.

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER SATAN IS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE?
When Satan is cast into the lake of fire, evil is finally eradicated. Again, while Satan was defeated at the cross, and then bound in terms of his ability to deceive the nations at the AD 70, it is only at the end of the millennium that he is finally disposed of (Rev. 20:7-10). What exactly happens at this point is not clear. In Revelation nothing more is mentioned about this time. Along these lines, it needs to be remembered that Revelation’s focus in on the things that were about to happen when it was written (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10), not the distant future.

It could be that the disposal of Satan at the end of the Gog and Magog invasion is the end of the present world. Ezekiel 39 talks of burying the invading army for seven months to cleanse the land (v. 12) and burning their weapons for seven years for fuel (vv. 9-10). What exactly this means is not clear; these details are not found in Revelation. Psalms 46:9 and Isaiah 9:5 provide a similar picture of the burning of implements of war to symbolize a time of peace and safety. Ezekiel’s stylized use of the sacred number seven here is probably symbolic, emphasizing the holiness of God’s judgment as he purges evil from the cosmos. Bøe writes the following on Ezekiel’s use of the number seven.

The number seven occurs three times in Ezek 39:9-15: Gog’s weapons will provide Israel with fuel for seven years, 39:9; the burying of Gog’s soldiers will take seven months, 39:12 and 14, and some scholars also count seven weapons in 39:9 . . . One may also recall the seven days of passivity in Ezek. 3:15 and the seven men (six executioners and the man clothed in linen) of 9:1-11. Batto [Slaying the Dragon, Mythmaking in the Biblical Tradition (Louisville: Westminster, John Knox Press, 1992),162] also points to the seven peoples addressed in Ezekiel 25-32 and the seven oracles directed to Egypt alone. This repeated use of seven (heptads) is probably not accidental; seven is not simply a number somewhere between one and ten. The basic idea of “seven” in the Old Testament is that of completeness, cf. Gen. 1:1-24. It plays a significant symbolic role in apocalyptically oriented texts, as can be see from the book of Revelation.75

Whether Ezekiel is showing that life on earth continues after the destruction of Gog and his collation is not clear. I tend to think it does not. As long as the world has people in non-resurrected bodies in it there will be evil (since ultimately evil is anything less than God’s perfection, Rom. 3:23). This is true even if the whole world somehow became Christian (as non glorified Christians still sin). Because of this I am inclined to think that the present physical order comes to an end at this time when evil is disposed of. This would not involve another coming of the Lord or a new judgment, however.

Daniel 7 shows one judgment that began at the AD 70 beginning of the millennium (Dan. 7:7-12, 21-27; cf. Rev. 20:4, 11-12). Judgment “was made in favor of the saints” at that time (Dan. 7:22). The manifestation of the judgment today relates to whether one is part of the New Jerusalem or not. Those who are not part of the bride—now wife—are already under judgment (Rev. 22:14-15). Unless they turn to the Lord they will end up in the lake of fire (cf. Rev. 20:15). Those who are part of the wife have access to the tree and water of life today (Rev. 21:22-22:5). I would not call what believers face today a judgment per se—more of an evaluation for rewards (although that is definitely a form of judgment): “. . . Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors and their works follow them’” (Rev. 14:13). The second death has no power over believers today (Rev. 20:6).

The Second Advent happened at AD 70. Jesus would have to leave for there to be another coming (cf. Rev. 21:3). The resurrection and judgment that began at AD 70 has been in process ever since. Today, believers continue to receive their resurrected bodies and rewards for their works at death, while non believers face the lake of fire at death (Rev. 21:8). The believer’s ultimate destination is not a paradise here on earth, but to be in heaven with our Lord in our resurrected bodies (1 Cor. 15:35-37, 44).

As I have discussed before, Revelation 20:7-10 is the only part of Revelation that speaks of the distant future. In chapter 20 John starts by talking about the AD 70 binding of Satan and the reign of the saints in verses 1-6. Verses 7-10 are a digression—a parenthetical statement about what happens to Satan at the end of the millennium. The description of the judgment at the beginning of the millennium in verse 4 is then continued in verses 11-15 (cf. Dan. 7:9-10; Matt. 25:31-46). Revelation 21-22 is not describing a future renewed planet with a cube shaped New Jerusalem dropping out of the sky (Rev. 21:1-2, 16). Rather, it is showing the post-AD 70 spiritual order of our world (cf. Isa.65-66)—the full establishment of the kingdom of God. It is showing the New Jerusalem bride—now wife (Rev. 21:9-10; cf. Matt. 22:1-10; Rev. 19:1-9) and who is part of her and who is not (Rev. 22:14-15).76

WILL THE WORLD LAST FOREVER?
The Sun is a star; eventually it will burn out. Before it does, however, it will grow bigger (becoming a “red giant”) and will turn the earth into a desert wasteland due to extreme heat. The full preterist idea that the world will last forever largely comes from their need to wrap up all prophecy by AD 70. It is true that one can come up with scriptures that, when taken in a wooden literal manner, support that the earth has no end. Upon closer inspection, however, these passages are not speaking of the eternal existence of this planet. John Noe writes the following in arguing for the eternality of planet earth.

The Psalmist confirms that the earth is established forever (Ps. 78.69) and that the earth and its foundations shall not be removed, ever (Ps. 104:5; see also Ps. 93:1; 96:10; 119:90). This applies to the whole material universe that He created, as well. Both moon and sun are eternally established as faithful witnesses in the sky (Ps. 89:36-37), as are the highest heavens (Ps. 148: 4,6). Eternalness is not only an attribute ascribed to God and his glory, it’s also an attribute ascribed to his creation.77

Is the earth just as eternal as God is? I find it ironic that full preterists—who rightly criticize dispensationalists for their wooden literalism—revert to wooden literalism on this issue. Granted one can cite verses like Psalm 78:69 (“And He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which He has established forever”), but this is hardly teaching that the world is eternal.78 One could just as easily say that this verse supports the eternal existence of a physical Temple, and yet Scripture clearly teaches that the Temple does not exist forever (cf. John 4:20-24; Rev. 21:22-23).

Consider the following from Ecclesiastes “‘Vanity of vanities,’ says the Preacher; ‘vanity of vanities, all is vanity.’ What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun? One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides forever.” (Ecc. 1:1-4). This is not a theological statement about the eternal existence of the earth. It is a poetic expression about the fragile condition of mankind; a person lives and dies and the world continues on without them. It should be noted that almost all the scriptures Noē cites above are from Psalms—a book that is full of poetic expressions, not scientific declarations.

Even if full preterists were right and the world were to last forever in its present condition, it is quite doubtful that mankind could. If there is no end to evil (remember, full preterists believe that evil continues on in men’s hearts into eternity), it is just a matter of time before man kills himself. As the technology of mass destruction continues to increase and the evil in man’s heart remains unabated, man would eventually destroy himself. It will not be too many more years till terrorists get a hold of nuclear devices. The world can not continue on its present course indefinitely.79

Endnotes:
71. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol. 6, 462.
72. Bøe, Gog and Magog, 335.
73. I must say that for all my disagreements with dispensationalists, I believe they are quite correct in their support of Israel.
74. As with the rest of Revelation, the lake of fire is symbolic; it is the second death (Rev. 20:14). Although the lake of fire is symbolic that does not minimize the reality of what it symbolizes. The picture of being cast into a lake of fire is horrific; it would involve every part of one’s body being in pain. This symbolizes the intense pain and suffering of being separated from the presence of God for eternity (cf. Rev. 14:9-11). In other parts of the Bible the picture used for being separated from God is “outer darkness” (Matt 8:12; 25:30). The lake of fire was made for the Devil and his angels but it is also to be the destination of those who reject Jesus (Matt 25:41-46). These are those who are not part of the New (covenant) Jerusalem (Rev. 21:8; 22:14-15).
75. Bøe, Gog and Magog, 127-128.
76. Just like the description of God’s unfaithful old covenant people (harlot Babylon) in chapters 17-18, God’s faithful people are first described as a woman (the bride) in chapter 19 (1-9) and then as a city (the New Jerusalem) in chapters 21-22.
77. John Noē, Beyond the End Times: the Rest of the Greatest Story Ever Told, (Bradford, PA: Preterist Resources, 1999), 49. It should be noted that Noē’s position on eschatology has been in flux. As far as I can tell he longer considers himself a full preterist but a “preterist-idealist” One can read his views at his website: Prophecy Reformation Institute, http://www.prophecyrefi.org/
78. In the book of Deuteronomy the Hebrew word for forever is used in reference to a bondservant who wanted to stay with his master. God said that the master should “take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever” (Deut. 15:17). This does not mean that this servant would belong to that master throughout eternity; it means that he would be joined to that master’s family for life. The use of forever in cases like these are not literal statements of eternal existence but phenomenological statements of a stable or long lasting situation.
79. We are currently are a little over 60 years into the era of nuclear weapons—the first time in history where we could actually destroy ourselves. As scary as the concept of mutual assured destruction (MAD) between the United States and Russia is, what is happening now with Islamic terrorism is even scarier. With mutual assured destruction there is at least a safeguard. If the Russia attacks us, we would attack them. This is a deterrent; there is direct accountability. In the near future the enemies of the United States (such as Iran or North Korea) could secretly give nuclear weapons to terrorists and escape accountability. There is little doubt that the Islamic terrorists that attacked the United States on 9-11 would have used nuclear weapons if they had them; it is just a matter of time before they get them. It may take 5 years, it may take 25 years, maybe a little longer, but it is just a matter of time. This makes the reality of a nuclear attack just a matter of time. Right now terrorists might only be able to produce a dirty bomb (one that just releases nuclear waste) but what will they be able to deliver in 20 years? In 100 years? In 10,000 years? Remember full preterism says the world will continue forever in its present state.
Eudene

Hi Duncan,

Yes, I enjoyed your book very much. It is well-written. I am like you. I am self-employed professional who is very into the Bible, especially end-time things. I’ve been studying eschatology for about ten years now. I’m trying to write a book about eschatology too but it’s hard to find the time to write. I had already come to the conclusion that we, the church, are in the millennium and the new heavens and new earth which began at 70 ad. However, I hadn’t given much thought to the resurrection, second coming, and judgment because I had assumed that these thing come at the end of time when the physical things are extinguished.

After reading your book, I’m starting to think you may right about this. A sequence of things is given in I Cor. 15:23. Everyone will be resurrected. First Christ, then at Christ’s coming, those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end. Then Christ will hand over the kingdom to his father until he destroys every ruler, power and authority. Heb. 10:13 says that the kingdom has already been handed over to the father and Christ is now waiting for his enemies to be destroyed. However, this would mean that Hebrews was written after 70 ad.when other indicators in the book imply the temple was still functioning. Another contraindication of a purely spiritual resurrection is 2 Tim 2:18. Even if Hymenaeus and Philetus were wrong about the resurrection having already occurred, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense that this mistake would have destroyed other believer’s faith if it were merely about the timing of an exclusively spiritual resurrection.

About Eze. 38, I’ve been trying to figure out for a long time whether it is the same as Gog-Magag war at the end of the Millennium. I tend to think that the Eze 38 war is at the beginning of the millennium because of it’s position between between the resurrected dry bones and Ezekiel’s temple and because of the mention of the earthquake, trembling creatures, and food for wild animals. Also, at the end of chapt. 39 it says, “now I will bring back Jacob’s captives.” If this is correct, then there will be another judgment at the end of the millennium when all the unbelievers will be destroyed.

Who do you think the false prophet was? Eudene
Eudene

Duncan,

Post Script: We know that something will happen after the millennium. Satan will be loosed, Gog/Magog will attack the church, Gog/Magog and Satan will be destroyed by fire from heaven. The implication is that sin, evil, and death will be destroyed at that time. Even though the Bible doesn’t tell us what will happen after that, I don’t think people will continue to be born and die in mortal bodies after that. It seems like the whole point of our mortal existence was for us to be tested and encouraged to overcome. Without Satan and death, the whole dynamic would change.

On a totally different subject: have you ever given any thought to the meaning of the differences in the type of animal and number of sacrifices required under the Mosaic system as compared with the Ezekiel temple system. Even though the sacrifices were physically carried out under Moses, they have a symbolic meaning in both systems. I was comparing the requirements for burnt offerings under the two systems and found the differences thought provoking. For example, Moses required a daily burnt offering of 2 lambs, 1 in the morning, 1 in the evening. Eze’s Temple only requires 1 lamb in the morning.

The Mosaic burnt offering for Sabbath is 2 lambs, while for Eze’s Temple, it is 6 lambs and 1 ram.

For new moons: 2 bulls, 1 ram and 7 lambs under Moses but 1 bull, 1 ram, and 6 lambs under Eze.

For Passover: 2 bulls, 1 ram, and 7 lambs under Moses but 7 bulls, 7 rams and no lambs under Eze.

For the Feast of Tabernacles: 13 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 1; 12 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day ; 11 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 3; 10 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 4; 9 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 5; 8 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 6; 7 bulls, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 7; 1 bull, 2 rams, 14 lambs on day 8 but 7 bulls, 7 rams, and no lambs on each of the 7 days with no 8th day under Eze.

The only one that I have an idea of what the symbolism means is about the daily sacrifice. I think that there is no second sacrifice in the evening in Eze’s temple because in the millennial kingdom there is no night. Have you ever noticed or heard about these differences or what they might mean? Eudene
Duncan

Here you go Eudene. Below are the first few pages of the chapter on the false prophet. To give a little bit of background, I see the individual beast (the eighth of the eight kings, Rev. 17:10-11) as the demonic ruler that worked through Titus in his destruction of harlot Israel (note that he comes out of the abyss, Rev. 11:7; 17:8). The individual beast is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7 (which Jewish tradition correctly says is Titus, see Rashi on Dan. 7):

1. The little horn/beast is an eighth ruler. The little eleventh horn becomes an eighth when three rulers are removed before him (Dan. 7:8). The beast is an eighth king (Rev. 17:11).

2. The little horn/beast speaks great blasphemies against God (Dan. 7:8, 11, 20, 25; Rev. 13:5-6).

3. The little horn/beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them (Dan. 7:21; Rev. 13:7).

4. The little horn/beast has a three-and-a-half-year reign of terror (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5).

5. The little horn/beast is defeated in AD 70 by the coming of God/Christ (Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 19:11-20).

6. The little horn/beast is thrown into the lake of fire at the time of the Second Coming (Dan. 7:11; Rev. 19:19-21).

7. The kingdom of God is established (what the NT shows as the beginning of the millennium) at the AD 70 defeat of the little horn/beast (Dan. 7:7-11, 21-27 (esp. vv. 21-22); Rev. 19:11-20:4).

Not very much background but that is all I have time for. Here is the beginning of the chapter.

CHAPTER VI
THE LAND BEAST/FALSE PROPHET (REVELATION 13:11-18)

In Revelation 13:1-10 John sees a beast that comes out of the sea. In verses 11-18 a second beast is introduced that comes out of the land (of Israel). The second beast attempts to get those who dwell on the land to worship the beast from the sea.

REVELATION 13:11-1
11. Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
15. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

As I have discussed, gē is usually better translated as “land” in Revelation rather than “earth.” The second beast comes out of the land of Israel; this is why he is subsequently referred to in Revelation as “the false prophet” (Rev. 16:13; 19:20; 20:10)—something God had warned Israel about (Deut. 13:1-3). This beast seeks to deceive those who dwell on the land. Ford writes the following on the meaning of the “land” in Revelation 13: “This could mean Asia in contrast to the west, represented by the sea (Rome came over the sea from the west). However, it is more likely that ‘the land’ means Palestine, since Heb. aretz, ‘land,’ is synonymous with Israel in Jewish writings.”1

Just as the beast from the sea ultimately represents a spiritual entity so does the beast from the land. Revelation 16:13-14 supports this as it shows demons coming out of the dragon, the individual beast, and the false prophet (the beast from the land, cf. Rev. 19:20).

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14

Since the dragon is a spiritual entity (i.e., Satan, Rev. 12:9) and the individual beast is a spiritual entity (he comes out of the abyss, Rev. 11:7; 17:8), it follows that the land beast/false prophet is also a spiritual entity.
Looking at the sea beast in Revelation 13, its heads represent demonic kings (Rev. 17:9-11; cf. the kings of Persia in Dan. 10:13) while its horns represent the physical rulers they worked through. It is the same with the beast from the land (which has one head with two horns, Rev. 13:11). Thus, the beast from the land represents a single demonic entity (the head) that worked through two different individuals (the two horns). The two horns of the land beast/false prophet were two Jews who tried to get their fellow dwellers on the land to submit to the individual beast. I shall argue that the two individuals this false prophet spirit worked through were Flavius Josephus and Yohanan ben Zakkai. Both prophesied the Flavian rise to power, and both actively sought to get their fellow Jews to submit to Flavian domination.

THE LAND BEAST/FALSE PROPHET
Although the land beast is not referred to as the false prophet in Revelation 13, that is the way he is subsequently referenced in Revelation (Rev. 16:13; 19:20; 20:10). God had warned Israel about false prophets. In the book of Deuteronomy God gave the children of Israel the following description of what constituted a false prophet:

If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass of which he spoke to you, saying, “Let us go after other gods”—which you have not known—“and let us serve them,” you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

Notice that what makes a false prophet false is not the content of his prophecies or dreams—they are accurate. What makes a false prophet false is that he tries to get his fellow Israelites to follow after other gods besides the one true God. The land beast/false prophet appears harmless and peaceful—he looks like a lamb (v. 11). His message of worshipping the first beast is satanic, however; thus he speaks like a dragon. Jesus warned of such false prophets who would come “in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Matt. 7:15).

The false prophet of Revelation 13 is the right-hand man of the individual beast, exercising his authority (v. 12). He is the individual beast’s liaison to the dwellers on the land (v. 14). If the individual beast was the demonic spirit working through Titus then one does not have to look too far to find his liaison to the Jews. That man was Josephus. Josephus was the one Titus used as a go-between as he tried to get the dwellers on the land to submit to him. Ford offers a similar suggestion—naming Josephus as an “obvious choice” for the false prophet.

If we are to understand “land” in the sense of “Palestine,” and if we are to see the land beast as a caricature of a prophet who looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (or like the dragon), i.e., Satan, then one may ask who at the time of the Jewish war would be most aptly associated with this second beast, the prophet from Palestine. It must be a prophet who served Rome i.e., the first beast. If the first beast is identified with Vespasian, the most obvious choice for the second beast is Flavius Josephus.2

I of course disagree with Ford that the first beast refers to Vespasian. The individual beast was the demonic spirit from the abyss that worked through Titus. It was Titus, not Vespasian, who used Josephus as an intermediary to the Jews. As I mentioned, I see the false prophet as ultimately being a spiritual entity—a demonic spirit that worked through Josephus and Yohanan ben Zakkai. Thus, I see Josephus not as the land beast per se, but as one of the land beast’s horns. I will discuss the other horn (Yohanan) below.

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
Joseph ben Mathias, better known as Flavius Josephus, was born around AD 38. Besides being of priestly descent, Josephus was also a prophet and a dreamer of dreams—the requirements of a false prophet. When war broke out with Rome in AD 66, Josephus was initially against it, but when war became inevitable he became one of a number of commanders assigned to different regions of Palestine. Josephus’ assigned region was Galilee. As it turned out this was one of the first places the Romans attacked and Josephus soon became a prisoner of Vespasian and Titus. Upon his capture, Josephus asked to be taken to Vespasian where he made his famous prophecy that Vespasian would become emperor. Smallwood provides the following summary of Josephus’ prophecies as well as his work as Titus’ liaison to the Jews:

As a valuable prisoner Josephus was to have been sent to Nero, but he hastily turned the situation to his own advantage by prophesying to Vespasian, the Roman commander, that he would soon become emperor. Information that other predictions by Josephus had come true impressed Vespasian sufficiently for him to keep the encouraging prophet in honourable custody at his headquarters for the next two years, until in July 69 (by which time Nero had been dethroned and his two short-lived successors had met equally inglorious ends) his troops took a hand in the current game of emperor-making and proclaimed their popular and able commander emperor as a more worthy candidate for the throne than the effete glutton then occupying it [Vitellius]. Josephus’ foresight was thus vindicated—and promptly rewarded with freedom. He was to spend the rest of the war with Roman forces, the only safe place for a man treated with such favour by the enemy that he was inevitably an object of the gravest suspicion to his own people.
In autumn of 69 Josephus accompanied Vespasian as far as Alexandria on the first stage of his journey to Rome to claim the throne, returning from there with Vespasian’s son Titus, now commander-in-chief, for the campaign which was to culminate in the siege and sack of Jerusalem the following summer [cf. Dan. 11:40-12:7] . . . During the siege he was used on several occasions as an intermediary to appeal to the Jews, by oratory addressed to the defenders on the walls, to give up their futile resistance and save their city by surrender. His words, far from having the desired effect, served only to infuriate the Jews, who regarded him, with good reason, as a traitor . . . .3

Again, it was Titus, not Vespasian, who used Josephus as a liaison to the dwellers on the land. When Josephus first made his prophecy that Vespasian would become emperor, Vespasian was understandably wary that it was a ploy by Josephus to save his neck. It was only after Vespasian questioned other Jewish prisoners that he became convinced that Josephus really did have prophetic abilities.4 Vespasian was a hardheaded military man; he was not the kind to be taken in by a trick.5 Upon learning that Josephus truly was a prophet, Vespasian spared his life. Josephus became especially close with Titus. His dedication even led him to take on the Flavian name; thus he became Flavius Josephus.

Josephus records the following about his realization that God wanted him to use his prophetic gifts to help the Romans in their destruction of the Jewish people.

The memory came back to him [Josephus] of then nocturnal dreams in which God had foretold him of the Jews’ impending fate and the fortunes of the coming Roman emperors. He was an interpreter of dreams and skilled in divining the obscure utterances of the Deity; being a priest himself and of priestly descent, he was familiar with the prophecies in Holy Scriptures. At this very moment he was inspired to understand their meaning and seizing on the terrifying images of his recent dreams, he offered a silent prayer to God: “Since it pleases you,” so it ran, “to break the Jewish people whom you created; since all fortune has passed to the Romans; and since you chose my spirit to make known the things that are to come, I willingly surrender to the Romans that I may live; but I call upon you as witness that I go not as a traitor, but as your minister.”6

Again, Josephus fits the criterion of a false prophet (Deut. 13:1-5). He was a prophet and a dreamer of dreams. He gave accurate prophecies but showed himself to be a false prophet by encouraging his fellow Jews to go after other gods—submitting to Titus Caesar as Lord. The “terrifying images” of Josephus’ prophetic dreams are probably an indication of the demonic forces working through him.7 By the way, Josephus’ comment about God breaking the Jewish people (“Since it pleases you to break the Jewish people . . . ”) probably alludes to Daniel 12:7 (“ . . . and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered all these things shall be finished”).

RABBI YOHANAN BEN ZAKKAI
My candidate for the second horn of the land beast/false prophet is Yohanan ben Zakkai. Like Josephus, Yohanan was a pacifist in regards to the Roman conflict (he looked like a lamb). Like Josephus, he encouraged his fellow Jews to submit to Rome; thus he spoke like a dragon (Rev. 13:11). Also like Josephus, Yohanan possessed prophetic abilities and prophesied Vespasian’s rise to power. The accuracy of Yohanan’s prophecies (as well as his complete devotion to the Flavians) impressed Vespasian and Titus to such a degree that they gave Yohanan his freedom and the right to establish what became the equivalent of a new Sanhedrin in the city of Yavneh. Neusner provides the following summary of Yohanan’s escape from Jerusalem and the prophecy he gave to Vespasian:

Yohanan ben Zakkai remained in the city [of Jerusalem] for two years, until the spring of A.D. 68. Nothing is known about his actions or opinions in this period. Indeed, one of the conspicuously silent periods of his life is that of the early war years. Talmudic literature does not preserve a single reliable record of his viewpoint on the period between the spring of AD 66 and his flight two years later . . . What, if anything, he said and did his successors did not choose to preserve. What they did hand down were several extremely confused, fanciful accounts of his escape, which are likely to have been based on historical events, but are neither wholly congruous with the events of that period nor internally consistent. All accounts agree, however, that he escaped from the city when escape was still possible, met Vespasian while the city was under siege, prophesied his imminent rise to imperial power, and was permitted by him to go to Yavneh, there to take refuge from the war.8

There is disagreement over whether Vespasian and Titus knowingly allowed Yohanan to set up a new ruling body for Judaism at Yavneh. Neusner gives the following opinion on this:

Jewish tradition long regarded Yohanan’s settlement there [at Yavneh] as the crucial nexus in the orderly transmission of the authority of the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem to rabbinical courts of later ages. While the rabbinic account is rather fanciful, one must ask whether its essential point is reasonable; namely, Did the Romans willingly and knowingly permit Yohanan ben Zakkai to establish an academy there? I think it likely that they did . . . [One may] regard the story of a smooth transition from Jerusalem to Yavneh with some suspicion. Nonetheless, if in details the several traditions present difficulties, we may legitimately conclude that their point was roughly congruent to the course of events. Yohanan did escape from Jerusalem before its destruction. He did go willing and with Roman approval to Yavneh. He did begin in an elementary way to reconstitute legitimate Jewish authority there.9

I believe that Rabbi ben Zakkai was allowed—perhaps even directed—to set up a new center for Jewish worship at Yavneh and that in return for this Yohanan required his followers to pay homage to the Flavian Caesar. Daniel 7:25 says that the little eleventh horn (Titus) would “intend to change times and law.” This is exactly what happened at Yavneh; the calculation of the calendar and Jewish law (functions of the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem) were changed. Quoting Neusner again, “Yohanan first, assumed the liturgical authority formerly vested de facto in the Temple priests to determine the proper calendar. Second, he exercised judicial and legal authority earlier held by the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.”10

The full extent of Yohanan’s collaboration with the Flavians in AD 69-70 is not known. Given the fact that he was the man who helped the little horn change the times and law, my suspicion is that his collaboration was extensive. At the very least the form of Judaism he was promoting would have clearly acknowledged Caesar as Lord. One does not let a religious leader of a people who are in rebellion—that sprang from their religion—set up a new religious authority unless one has absolute certainty about his and his followers’ devotion. This, and the fact that Yohanan had the ability to prophesy in the time around AD 70, is what leads me to believe the false prophet spirit that worked through Josephus also worked through Yohanan; he was the second horn of the land beast (Rev. 13:11). Like the individual beast, the demonic spirit working through Josephus and Yohanan ben Zakkai would have been destroyed at the Second Advent in the autumn of AD 70 (Rev. 19:11-21). With the false prophet spirit destroyed, I would expect that Yohanan’s power and influence were less extensive after that time. History supports this: Yohanan did not retain his place of leadership at Yavneh and was replaced by Gamaliel II.

Endnotes:
1. Ford, Revelation, 213.
2. Ibid., 227.
3. Smallwood, Josephus: The Jewish War, 11.
4. Josephus, Jewish War, 3, 8, 9.
5. For another example of Vespasian checking things out to see if a supernatural sign was real see Tacitus, The Histories 4, 82.
6. Josephus, Jewish War, 3, 8, 3, trans. Cornfeld, 239. I find it interesting that when Josephus was captured he was hiding in a cave deep in the ground; he literally came out of the land when he went over to the Romans.
7. I am not suggesting that nightmares are necessarily an indication of demonic activity. There are, however, certain kinds of dreams that I believe are demonic. The kinds of dreams I am referring to are the kind that certain people get of an impending airplane crash or natural disaster that then comes to pass. These dreams are usually experienced by the dreamer as being horrific and are probably demonically inspired. Apparently these were the kinds of prophetic dreams that Josephus had been experiencing.
8. Jacob Neusner, First Century Judaism in Crisis, Augmented Edition, (New York: KTAV Publishing House, 1982), 140-41.
9. Ibid., 148-150.
10. Ibid., 183.
Duncan

If anyone is interested, Rashi’s commebtary on Dan. 7 can be found here: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16490/showrashi/true
Eudene

Hello Again Duncan,
I’ve been doing some thinking about if and how the Jewish feasts figure into the timing of the eschatological events. Everyone seems to agree that Jesus’ crucifixion, resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit corresponded to the actual dates of the Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, Feast of First Fruits, and Pentecost in history (30 ad). From this I infer that the Day of the Lord, the Judgement, the Rapture, and the Resurrection have a similar connection to the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles. How does the theory that all the remaining eschatological event happened in 70 ad correlate with the fall feast schedule? Is there a connection between the 4-5 month separation between the Spring Feast/Fall Feasts and the 40- year separation between sacrificial events during Christ’s life on earth and the subsequent spiritual events at 70 ad? Merry Christmas, Eudene
Duncan

Hi Eudene,

Yes I do think the 4 month difference between the spring and fall feast correlates with AD 30 and AD 70 fulfillemnts. Here is something from volume I that looks at the 1,290/1335 days of Dan. 12.

IT WAS 1,290 DAYS FROM THE COMING OF TITUS TO THE DESTRUCTION
OF THE JEWISH NATION
The siege of Jerusalem ended in early September of AD 70, resulting in the shattering of the power of the Jews. If you count back 1,290 days (43 months) from the beginning of September AD 70, it takes you to February AD 67. This was the time that Titus marched his forces up from Egypt through the length of the Holy Land to rendezvous with his father in Ptolemais (This was the abomination of desolation–the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate, Dan. 9:27). I would explain the month difference between the 43 months of 1,290 days (Dan. 12:11) and the 42 months of “a time, times, and half a time” that the Antichrist was to war against the Jews (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; cf. Rev. 11:2; 13:5) as being the month or so that Titus and Vespasian spent marshaling their forces in Ptolemais. It was about a month after Titus’ coming that he actually began his 42-month campaign against the Jews.

Another possible explanation of the extra month of the 1,290 days is that an intercalated month is being added. The Jews would insert an extra month in their calendar every three or so years to keep their lunar calendar in sync with the seasons.16 If an intercalated month were being added, however, one would think that Revelation would also use 1,290 days—it does not; it uses 1,260 days (cf. Rev. 11:3).

It is interesting to note that the Jewish historian Yossipon (possibly drawing on the work of Josephus)17 said that the length of the Roman siege against the Jewish nation was 1,290 days. Goldwurm writes the following on this:

The Talmud (Gittin 56a) gives three years as the duration of the siege. We may assume that the Sages gave an approximate figure that the exact duration of the siege was, as Yossipon relates, 1,290 days, or three and a half years. But upon closer examination one could say that the passage in Gittin refers only to the three years spent by Vespasian personally in this campaign. After three years of Vespasian’s siege, the Emperor Nero died and Vespasian was appointed to replace him (ibid 56b; Josephus, Wars 5:10; Yossipon ch. 75). Vespasian left for Rome to claim his crown and sent his son Titus to carry on the campaign. The seven months Titus required to take the city, plus his father’s three years gives us the total of three and a half years mentioned.18

As I have mentioned previously, it was Titus who fought against Daniel’s people for three-and-a-half years, not Vespasian. Vespasian’s attention turned to Rome around July of AD 69 when his troops proclaimed him emperor. Thus, the length of Vespasian’s warring against the Jews was more like two-and-a-half years. Both Vespasian and Titus made the first invasion of the Holy Land (Dan. 11:40-41); it was Titus alone who made the second invasion (from Egypt, Dan. 11:42-45). Again, Titus had been given full authority of Syria at this time (the domain of the king of the North). This fulfilled the prophecy of the king of the North invading the Holy Land from Egypt; it was the second coming of the Antichrist.

1,335 DAYS
Daniel did not understand the answer given in verse 7 to the question of how long until the fulfillment of the events revealed to him, and so he tried a slightly different question. He asked what the final end or outcome of these things would be (Dan. 12:8). This question is answered in Daniel 12:12 where Daniel is told that a period of profound blessing was to start 45 days past the 1,290 days, at 1,335 days.

Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.

The 1,335 days when this blessed period was to start was 45 days after the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people in AD 70 (Dan. 12:7). If my interpretation is on the right track, you would expect that 45 days after the fall of Jerusalem would bring you to a date of particular significance in terms of the end of the old covenant age. When you add 45 days to the end of the siege of Jerusalem it brings you to the day after the completion of the Feast of Tabernacles/Ingathering in AD 70 (the Temple was gone by this time of course). This is significant in that this feast finishes Israel’s yearly cycle.19 This fits the context of Daniel 12 and its discussion of the end of the old covenant age quite well.20

THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES/INGATHERING
The Feast of Tabernacles celebrates the final bringing in of the harvest (Deut. 16:13-15), hence its other name, the Feast of Ingathering (Exod. 23:14-17). It is the last of the yearly feasts of Israel and is symbolic of the ingathering of God’s people at the end of the age. This can be seen in Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matt. 13:36-43) in which the end of the harvest is used as an analogy for God’s gathering together his own at the end of the age: “The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one . . . The harvest is the end of the age.” (Matt. 13:38-39; cf. Rev. 14:14-20).

Notice that Jesus alludes to Daniel 12 in telling this parable:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Matthew 13:40-43

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Daniel 12:2-3

Jesus alluding to Daniel 12 here is consistent with the proposition that both passages refer to the end of the old covenant age. The fulfillment of this end of the age ingathering happened at Jesus’ Second Coming in AD 70. Jesus indicated that this gathering would happen in the lifetime of some of those listening to Him:

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Matthew 24:30-34

This ingathering of God’s people was not a physical rapture to heaven but a spiritual gathering of believers into the fullness of the new covenant. Jesus “would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad” (John 11:49-52; cf. Matt 3:5-12). This gathering happened at the fulfillment of the Feast of Ingathering in AD 70 (cf. Rev. 14:14-20). According to the prophecy of Daniel this blessed time was to be fulfilled forty-five days (Dan. 12:12) after the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people (Dan. 12:7). This was the end of the great tribulation and the beginning of the resurrection (Dan. 12:1-3; cf. Rev. 20:4-6). This was the time when God’s people fully possessed the kingdom (Dan. 7:17-27; cf. Rev. 11:15-18).

Endnotes
16. For a discussion of the intercalated month see J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, 400.
17. Goldwurm writes the following on Yossipon: “The name given to an ancient Jewish history quoted often by Rashi and other early writers. The author gives his name as Joseph ben Gorion and mentions that he wrote a parallel history for the Romans. His account of the destruction of the Temple is written in eye-witness style and resembles Josephus very much. All this raises speculation whether this book is Josephus’ Hebrew version of his history.” Rabbi Hersh Goldwurm, Daniel: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources, 350.
18. Goldwurm, Daniel, 265.
19. For the most part Josephus used the Macedonian calendar in his writings. Like the Jewish calendar, the Macedonian calendar was based on the moon, with each new month beginning with the new moon. The Macedonian calendar, while having different names for the twelve months of the year, corresponded exactly with the Jewish calendar. We know this from the writings of Josephus, who occasionally gave the Jewish month together with the corresponding Macedonian month. Finegan in his Handbook of Biblical Chronology writes the following on this:

In his Jewish Antiquities and Jewish War Josephus commonly uses Macedonian month names and from time to time adds their Jewish equivalents. In Antiquities 1, 3, 3 he states that Dios and Marheshvan are the same and that this was the second month. This means that in a year beginning in the fall, Hyperberetaios = Tishri was the first month. He also says that Xanthikos and Nisan are the same and are the first month of the year for divine worship and for ordinary affairs. Again in Antiquities 3, 10, 5 he equates Xanthikos and Nisan and states that this month begins the year. Also in Antiquities 11, 5, 4; 12, 5, 4; and 12, 7, 6 he equates Apellaios and Kislev and makes no difference between the twenty-fifth day in the one month and in the other . . . In Josephus therefore, the Macedonian months may be taken as fully and exactly equivalent to the Jewish months . . . .” (underlined emphasis mine). Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1964), 73.

Josephus recorded that the end of the siege of Jerusalem happened on the eighth of Gorpiaios AD 70 (the month of Gorpiaios corresponds to the time around August and September). The eighth of Gorpiaios on the Macedonian calendar would have corresponded to the eighth of Elul on the Jewish calendar. When one adds forty-five days to the eighth of Elul, one comes to the twenty-fourth of Tishri AD 70 (Tishri corresponds to the time around September/October on our calendar). This is a significant date in that the twenty-fourth of Tishri is the first day past the consummation of the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles (in Israel the last day of the feast is the twenty-second, but outside of Israel an extra day of the feast is celebrated on the twenty-third).
20. Zechariah 14 talks about the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles in the context of the capture of Jerusalem on the day of the Lord. I shall discuss Zechariah 14 in my next chapter, “The Day of the Lord.”

Duncan McKenzie, The Antichrist and the Second Coming, vol. one, 224-228
Eudene

You addressed the Feast of Tabernacles. But did anything happen on the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Atonement?
- Duncan
  
  Eudene,
  
  Great question. It seems like there should be something there. To be honest I am not sure. I have not looked into it that deeply; here is a thought or two, however.
  Look at Rev. 1:10 a trumpet is mentioned (and of course there are the 7 trumpets later in the book) . Then look at 2:10, ten days are mentioned. Is that an allusion to the ten days of Awe? Not sure but it is an interesting idea. I think David Curtis talks about the festivals but I don’t know what he says. google his name and festivals and see what you get. Let me know if you find something good :-) On the ten days see here.
  http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday3.htm
Eudene

Duncan,
I checked out David Curtis. He says that the four months between Spring and Fall Feasts is an allusion to the 40 years. The 40 years between the crucifixion and the full establishment of the kingdom and New Heavens/New Earth is the antetype of the 40 years in the wilderness after the Israelites had experienced the passover and before they entered the promised land. The day of trumpets typifies of 2nd Coming, a signal to get ready for battle, the rapture, and the resurrection. The type is the battle of Jericho. It is the only feast which happens on the first day of the month which means it happens in darkness because only the first sliver of the moon is showing. The day of atonement is a solemn day that the high priest goes into the most holy place and sprinkles the blood on the mercy seat. The feast of tabernacles is the most joyous of the feast and signifies the completion of God’s plan of redemption. We don’t know how or exactly what day these events happened in 70 ad because the NT was written before it occurred and there are complicated calendar issues. The events of fall feasts were probably all spiritual events anyway so there wouldn’t have been eye witness accounts of them anyway. Thanks for your tip about Curtis.

Do you know anything about Edward Hassertt? I guess he was a preterist but has now recanted. He started to have some doubts and plus he felt that preterism and defending it was making him behave badly.
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