Today on The Sam Frost Show, Sam and Michael J Loomis further discuss Full Preterism and the problem of infinity.
The Sam Frost Show – 06.02.2010
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Today on The Sam Frost Show, Sam and Michael J Loomis further discuss Full Preterism and the problem of infinity.
The Sam Frost Show – 06.02.2010
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Sam
You are welcome. I gotta little emotional on this show, and perhaps that is my own pride at work, but I am passionate about theology and that comes out in the wrong ways sometimes. I certainly do not mean anyone in specific any belittling. I come from that Mark Levine, Rush Limbaugh, Gary North kind of bend. Christians, largely, follow these shows like Rush and Beck, who continually use sarcasm and ill humor to the “libs” and “feminazis”. I can't be always kind, but I'll work on it.
Sam
That theological bastion of uncanny perception has struck again with this amazing excerpt from one of his “responses” to my arguments:
“” . . . The infinity of number . . . is . . . not incomprehensible [to God]. . . All infinity is in some ineffable way made finite to God. . . . All infinity . . . is comprehensible by His knowledge. . . . What are we poor creatures that we should presume to fix limits to His knowledge, and say that unless the same temporal thing be repeated by the same periodic revolutions, God cannot . . . foreknow His creatures that He may make them. . . ? God . . . comprehends all incomprehensibles with so incomprehensible a comprehension, that though He willed always to make His later works novel and unlike what went before them, He [would ] produce them [with] foresight, [and] conceive them . . . by His eternal foreknowledge.” [From Augustine]
That's an amazing quote. It's as if Augustine had read Sam's very arguments and directly refuted them. Believe it or not though, Sam quoted that whole chapter in his article “More Thoughts on the Problem of Infinity.” Even though Augustine in that chapter teaches the exact, 180-degree opposite of what Sam is teaching, Sam's comments on the chapter actually make it appear that Augustine somehow agrees with him! “
Ahem. Dave needs to read Augustine a little more closely: “All infinity is in some ineffable way made finite to God. . . . All infinity . . . is comprehensible by His knowledge. . ” Catch that, Dave? MADE FINITE…….Infinity is NOT INFINITY to God. It is COMPREHENDED, or MADE FINITE by him because he created ALL THINGS (finite things are created things, Dave). Your buddy already admitted my first point, that it is a paradox, and now you try to assert that of Augustine. The same Augustine that denies succession of thoughts in the saints in heaven.
Sam
Let me go ahead and bury the point in Latin. The text from Augustine is City of God, 12.18, where he EXPLICITLY states, “All infinity is in some ineffable way made finite to God. . . . All infinity . . . is comprehensible by His knowledge.” Now, the Latin is even more explicit: “Quapropter si quicquid scientia comprehenditur, scientis comprehensione fini tur; profecto et omnis infinitas quodam ineffabili modo Deo finita est, quia scientiac ipsius in' comprehensibilis non est. Quare est infinitas numerorum scientiae Dei, qua comprehenditur, esse non potest infinita; “modo Deo finita est” God's knowledge makes what is potentialy infinite to us, “finite”. He knows is comprehensibly. Augustine is saying the same thing I have been saying. It is not “infinite” to God. It is comprehended precisely because it is FINITE to God. Knoweledge (scientiae) has an end (telos). Therefore, though cannot possibly comprehend HOW God knows all things, we can confidently assert that HE DOES know all things because ALL THINGS are “in some ineffable way made finite”. Amen, Augustine. Dave, go back and read him again.
Sam
Dave Green, with the most amazing “try and turn this disaster around” I have ever seen, is now saying this: “Yes, I don't think even us “hyper-preterists” have a major problem with the possibility that we're misunderstanding some “forever” verses, and the universe will actually end one day. The problem is, as you said, Sam's Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy that God is too small and too weak to grasp infinity and that infinity therefore cannot exist. As you said, that represents “a low view of God” –and I might add, a low view of God's universe too.”
ROFL….the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I wrote in my paper…..clearly he never read it. I am floored…..simply floored at the sheer attempt here to make MY view the Thomist view……ROFL……go back and read my first paper again, and the second, and the third……I know what this is, because I have done it. We we just can't stand to be wrong, or admit that we are wrong, we blindly read and search for things that will turn around the arguments or whatever….anything but admit that we are wrong…..and that's what I am witnessing here……Dave has completely so misread what I have written that even Roderick is confused…..now that's a real dangerous place to be…..
Sam
Note, too the cop out that the universe “may” end some day. If the possibility of it ending one day is true, then the whole problem is no longer a paradox. Let's look at this. It IS a paradox if it doesn't end, according to Green and Co., but it MAY end one day, and thus, the paradox would be removed……God forbid He removes the paradox! That would take away from how BIG God is, according to Green and Co…….
Sorry folks, having too much fun with this……
1. The paradox makes God bigger.
2. The universe may end.
3. This would solve the paradox.
4. But, then God would be smaller.
Briansh31
I have been “somewhat” following this “infinity” discussion. It seems to me that it has too many philosophers and too few biblical texts. And comes off being a bunch of speculation rather than scriptural observation or exegesis. I read, (forget which reply it was of Sam's) that:
1. Infinite is not a Biblical concept of God based on Greek Philosophy and many Christian Philosophers/theologians with citings from a few Biblical texts.
2. However, ETERNAL is a Biblical concept of God, meaning God alone has no beginning or end. God's people, covenant, angels, etc. are eternal, having a beginning but no end.
My conclusion then is Eternal God or choice number 2!
Whether or not this world/universe/cosmos will end is only abstract, unbiblical, human speculation at best. If it continues into eternity then it will, just as all created being/things are, be sustained by the power of God. It does not need to be inherently eternal to last eternally. If it is created it can be destroyed or sustained by Him whom upholds all things by the Word of His Power.
Sola Christo
Brian H.
One question further I wish to add:
If this world/universe is to end, when? 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years from now? I cant concieve the length of the above enumeration, but this may be eternity right?
I admittedly posit this speculation!!!
In Christ
Brian H. (formerly Briansh31)
Samuelmfrost
Brian,
I don't believe in abstraction (you have to define that). I do believe in logical deduction and avoidance of contradiction from what Scripture has revealed. But, thanks for your reply.
Briansh31
I have been “somewhat” following this “infinity” discussion. It seems to me that it has too many philosophers and too few biblical texts. And comes off being a bunch of speculation rather than scriptural observation or exegesis. I read, (forget which reply it was of Sam's) that:
1. Infinite is not a Biblical concept of God based on Greek Philosophy and many Christian Philosophers/theologians with citings from a few Biblical texts.
2. However, ETERNAL is a Biblical concept of God, meaning God alone has no beginning or end. God's people, covenant, angels, etc. are eternal, having a beginning but no end.
My conclusion then is Eternal God or choice number 2!
Whether or not this world/universe/cosmos will end is only abstract, unbiblical, human speculation at best. If it continues into eternity then it will, just as all created being/things are, be sustained by the power of God. It does not need to be inherently eternal to last eternally. If it is created it can be destroyed or sustained by Him whom upholds all things by the Word of His Power.
Sola Christo
Brian H.
One question further I wish to add:
If this world/universe is to end, when? 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years from now? I cant concieve the length of the above enumeration, but this may be eternity right?
I admittedly posit this speculation!!!
In Christ
Brian H. (formerly Briansh31)
Samuelmfrost
Brian,
I don't believe in abstraction (you have to define that). I do believe in logical deduction and avoidance of contradiction from what Scripture has revealed. But, thanks for your reply.