I am working on my Th.M. so I am not writing elaborate blogs much. But, I will throw out a few quickies. For Full Preterists like Mike Sullivan, the “harvest” was limited to AD 70. Therefore, the “harvest” is over. But, the Bible flat out contradicts this view.
First, the Festival of Booths is defined as “Sukkot is a harvest holiday, comparable in some ways to the American Thanksgiving. It also one of the “Pilgrim Festivals” (the others are Pesakh and Shavuot) on which Jews used to make pilgrimmages to the Temple with offerings for God from the harvest” (http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/holidays/sukkot.htm)
Simple enough, right? In Zechariah 14.1-11 we have events that, I believe, refer to AD 70. We also have explicit mention of Revelation 21-22 in Zech 14.8-9. So far so good. But, Zechariah does not end there. He continues to PROPHESY about what has come to be known as the age/ages to come:
“And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 And on that day a great panic from the LORD shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other. 14 Even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps. 16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain;1 there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. 19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. 20 And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. 21 And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader1 in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day (14.12-21).
1. The wealth will be gathered.
2. year after year (time continues AFTER vv.8-9 is established).
3. Feasts of booths is KEPT during this time.
What can be concluded from this, then, is that we, in the age/ages to come KEEP the Festival of Booths, the HARVEST festival. The Harvest did no END in AD 70, it BEGAN in AD 70. Booths did not END in AD 70, this Festival BEGAN in AD 70. The end of the age (AD 70) was not the END of the Harvest, but the marking of the time when the HARVEST BEGINS, not just for those in the previous ages, but also for the ages to come. God is NOW harvesting through the call of the Gospel. The Festival of Booths (which I see as a pciture of being “in Christ”) is NOW.
Silly Full Preterists….they want everything over in AD 70, yet still want “regeneration” today……can anyone say, “inconsistent”?
Duncan
Good stuff Sam. Here are some of my thoughts on Zech. 14. Not the easiest chapter in the Bible to interpret! http://planetpreterist.com/content/day-lord-zechariah-14
Patrick Stone
Yes…good stuff. I never thought about the Feast of Tabernacles in Zech 14 referring to the harvest of souls. I like it.
Duncan
Here is something on the feast of tabernacles. The last feast in the Jewish calender.
IT WAS 1,290 DAYS FROM THE COMING OF TITUS TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE JEWISH NATION
The siege of Jerusalem ended in early September of AD 70, resulting in the shattering of the power of the Jews (Dan. 12:7). If you count back 1,290 days (43 months, Dan. 12:11) from the beginning of September AD 70, it takes you to February AD 67. This was the time that Titus marched his forces up from Egypt through the length of the Holy Land to rendezvous with his father in Ptolemais. I would explain the month difference between the 43 months of 1,290 days (Dan. 12:11) and the 42 months of “a time, times, and half a time” that the Antichrist was to war against the Jews (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; cf. Rev. 11:2; 13:5) as being the month or so that Titus and Vespasian spent marshaling their forces in Ptolemais. It was about a month after Titus’ coming that he actually began his 42-month campaign against the Jews.
Another possible explanation of the extra month of the 1,290 days is that an intercalated month is being added. The Jews would insert an extra month in their calendar every three or so years to keep their lunar calendar in sync with the seasons.[16] If an intercalated month were being added, however, one would think that Revelation would also use 1,290 days—it does not; it uses 1,260 days (cf. Rev. 11:3).
It is interesting to note that the Jewish historian Yossipon (possibly drawing on the work of Josephus)[17] said that the length of the Roman siege against the Jewish nation was 1,290 days. Goldwurm writes the following on this:
The Talmud (Gittin 56a) gives three years as the duration of the siege. We may assume that the Sages gave an approximate figure that the exact duration of the siege was, as Yossipon relates, 1,290 days, or three and a half years. But upon closer examination one could say that the passage in Gittin refers only to the three years spent by Vespasian personally in this campaign. After three years of Vespasian’s siege, the Emperor Nero died and Vespasian was appointed to replace him (ibid 56b; Josephus, Wars 5:10; Yossipon ch. 75). Vespasian left for Rome to claim his crown and sent his son Titus to carry on the campaign. The seven months Titus required to take the city, plus his father’s three years gives us the total of three and a half years mentioned.[18]
As I have mentioned previously, it was Titus who fought against Daniel’s people for three-and-a-half years, not Vespasian. Vespasian’s attention turned to Rome around July of AD 69 when his troops proclaimed him emperor. Thus, the length of Vespasian’s warring against the Jews was more like two-and-a-half years. Both Vespasian and Titus made the first invasion of the Holy Land (Dan. 11:40-41); it was Titus alone who made the second invasion (from Egypt, Dan. 11:42-45). Again, Titus had been given full authority of Syria at this time (the domain of the king of the North). This fulfilled the prophecy of the king of the North invading the Holy Land from Egypt; it was the second coming of the Antichrist.
1,335 DAYS
Daniel did not understand the answer given in verse 7 to the question of how long until the fulfillment of the events revealed to him, and so he tried a slightly different question. He asked what the final end or outcome of these things would be (Dan. 12:8). This question is answered in Daniel 12:12 where Daniel is told that a period of profound blessing was to start 45 days past the 1,290 days, at 1,335 days.
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.
The 1,335 days when this blessed period was to start was 45 days after the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people in AD 70 (Dan. 12:7). If my interpretation is on the right track, you would expect that 45 days after the fall of Jerusalem would bring you to a date of particular significance in terms of the end of the old covenant age. When you add 45 days to the end of the siege of Jerusalem it brings you to the day after the completion of the Feast of Tabernacles/Ingathering in AD 70 (the Temple was gone by this time of course). This is significant in that this feast finishes Israel’s yearly cycle.[19] This fits the context of Daniel 12 and its discussion of the end of the old covenant age quite well.[20]
THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES/INGATHERING
The Feast of Tabernacles celebrates the final bringing in of the harvest (Deut. 16:13-15), hence its other name, the Feast of Ingathering (Exod. 23:14-17). It is the last of the yearly feasts of Israel and is symbolic of the ingathering of God’s people at the end of the age. This can be seen in Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matt. 13:36-43) in which the end of the harvest is used as an analogy for God’s gathering together his own at the end of the age: “The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one . . . The harvest is the end of the age.” (Matt. 13:38-39; cf. Rev. 14:14-20).
Notice that Jesus alludes to Daniel 12 in telling this parable (underlined emphasis mine):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Matthew 13:40-43
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Daniel 12:2-3
Jesus alluding to Daniel 12 here is consistent with the proposition that both passages refer to the end of the old covenant age. The fulfillment of this end of the age ingathering happened at Jesus’ Second Coming in AD 70. Jesus indicated that this gathering would happen in the lifetime of some of those listening to Him:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Matthew 24:30-34 (underlined emphasis mine)
This ingathering of God’s people was not a physical rapture to heaven but a spiritual gathering of believers into the fullness of the new covenant. Jesus “would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad” (John 11:49-52; cf. Matt 3:5-12). This gathering happened at the fulfillment of the Feast of Ingathering in AD 70 (cf. Rev. 14:14-20). According to the prophecy of Daniel this blessed time was to be fulfilled forty-five days (Dan. 12:12) after the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people (Dan. 12:7). This was the end of the great tribulation and the beginning of the resurrection (Dan. 12:1-3; cf. Rev. 20:4-6). This was the time when God’s people fully possessed the kingdom (Dan. 7:17-27; cf. Rev. 11:15-18).
SUMMARY OF THE 1,290/1,335 DAYS
The fall of Jerusalem marked the shattering of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:7); it happened 1,290 days after the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate (the abomination of desolation of Dan. 9:27 and 12:11). Adding 45 days to the fall of Jerusalem (which equals the 1,335 days of Dan. 12:12) brings one to the 24th of Tishri, the first day past the completion (and I believe fulfillment) of the Feast of Tabernacles/Ingathering in AD 70. This was the last of Israel’s yearly feasts; it was fulfilled in the spiritual gathering together of God’s people at the parousia in AD 70 (cf. Matt. 24:30-34; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; Rev. 14:14-16). The blessedness of those who stayed true to this time of the end of the age (cf. Matt. 24:13) is the same blessedness that those who participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb were to possess:
Blessed is he who waits and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
Daniel 12:12
Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!
Revelation 19:9
Jesus had said that much of physical Israel would be cast out at this time of the messianic banquet: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out . . .” (Matt. 8:11-12; cf. Matt. 3:4-12; 22:1-10; Gal. 4:21-31).
Those believers who die in the post-AD 70 kingdom age (which includes believers today) are those of whom it is written, “‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them’” (Rev. 14:13). Notice that the next two verses after this declaration of blessedness show the ingathering of the harvest (symbolizing Jesus’ gathering together his own at his Second Coming; Rev. 14:14-16).
Endnotes:
16. For a discussion of the intercalated month see J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, 400.
17. Goldwurm writes the following on Yossipon: “The name given to an ancient Jewish history quoted often by Rashi and other early writers. The author gives his name as Joseph ben Gorion and mentions that he wrote a parallel history for the Romans. His account of the destruction of the Temple is written in eye-witness style and resembles Josephus very much. All this raises speculation whether this book is Josephus’ Hebrew version of his history.” Rabbi Hersh Goldwurm, Daniel: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources, 350.
18. Goldwurm, Daniel, 265.
19. For the most part Josephus used the Macedonian calendar in his writings. Like the Jewish calendar, the Macedonian calendar was based on the moon, with each new month beginning with the new moon. The Macedonian calendar, while having different names for the twelve months of the year, corresponded exactly with the Jewish calendar. We know this from the writings of Josephus, who occasionally gave the Jewish month together with the corresponding Macedonian month. Finegan in his Handbook of Biblical Chronology writes the following on this:
In his Jewish Antiquities and Jewish War Josephus commonly uses Macedonian month names and from time to time adds their Jewish equivalents. In Antiquities 1, 3, 3 he states that Dios and Marheshvan are the same and that this was the second month. This means that in a year beginning in the fall, Hyperberetaios = Tishri was the first month. He also says that Xanthikos and Nisan are the same and are the first month of the year for divine worship and for ordinary affairs. Again in Antiquities 3, 10, 5 he equates Xanthikos and Nisan and states that this month begins the year. Also in Antiquities 11, 5, 4; 12, 5, 4; and 12, 7, 6 he equates Apellaios and Kislev and makes no difference between the twenty-fifth day in the one month and in the other . . . In Josephus therefore, the Macedonian months may be taken as fully and exactly equivalent to the Jewish months . . . .” (underlined emphasis mine). Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1964), 73.
Josephus recorded that the end of the siege of Jerusalem happened on the eighth of Gorpiaios AD 70 (the month of Gorpiaios corresponds to the time around August and September). The eighth of Gorpiaios on the Macedonian calendar would have corresponded to the eighth of Elul on the Jewish calendar. When one adds forty-five days to the eighth of Elul, one comes to the twenty-fourth of Tishri AD 70 (Tishri corresponds to the time around September/October on our calendar). This is a significant date in that the twenty-fourth of Tishri is the first day past the consummation of the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles (in Israel the last day of the feast is the twenty-second, but outside of Israel an extra day of the feast is celebrated on the twenty-third).
20. Zechariah 14 talks about the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles in the context of the capture of Jerusalem on the day of the Lord. I shall discuss Zechariah 14 in my next chapter, “The Day of the Lord.”
Duncan McKenzie, The Antichrist and the Second Coming vol. I, 224-229
sam
Duncan,
This is very good work you have provided, no doubt. But, it appears that you have the Feast of Booths ended in AD 70, instead of seeing it as ongoing, as Zechariah appears to portray it (year after year). I have made the same parallels you made even while a Full Preterist, but the difference was that even then I taught an ongoing aspect. The living water didn’t “stop” in AD 70 – it’s flowing even today. I would say also the same for the gathering. God didn’t stop gathering/calling.
See what I mean?
sam
Duncan,
In other words, I noticed you quoted Matthew Henry in your article on Planet Preterist. Yet, reading further, Henry wrote, “We must go to Christ our temple with all our offerings…Every day of a Christian’s life is a day of the feast of tabernacles…” (in location, Verses 16-21).
What Henry (and Calvin) interpreted here for the whole passage is quite sound.
Also, the “remnant” celebrated this feast in a way unlike the previous years (Nehemiah 8.16-ff). If this reflects the promises of starting with a “seed” or “remnant” of Israel to launch the “expansion and growth” of her people, then we have the clear pattern in Rev 21-22 – growth and expansion POST AD 70 – to which one must drop the FP error that “all” prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. A great deal of it was fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus, the generation to follow, and AD 70….but not ALL of it…this fact alone causes one to seek for a better solution than FP.
Duncan
Yes. That is why in my 25 years of being a preterist I have never been a FP
Duncan
Hey Sam,
I see the feast of Tabernacles/Ingathering as being fulfilled at AD 70, not ending at that time. We are no longer in the wilderness, we are in the Promised Land (the fullness of the kingdom). One can see the fullness of the kingdom that began at AD 70 in Luke 19:11-27 (cf. Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 20:4)
It is like the feast of Passover. It did not end at AD 30; it was fulfilled at that time with the death of Jesus. He does not have to been sacrificed again and again (Heb. 10:10-12) for there to be ongoing fulfillment. His sacrifice had better have ongoing application, however; we are sunk if it does not . . . .
Dr. Birks
Good job, Sam.
Once again, you’re nailing the target!
Dr. B…
QuantumGreg
Great stuff, Duncan & Sam.
Once again, let’s apply what we know. As Sam sees an ongoing of the ingathering, and Duncan sees that we are in the Promised Land (and not in the 40-yr wilderness), then keep that thought going and apply it to our lives. What did Joshua do in the Promised Land? He conquered cities that were technically and judicially already his. He had to lay hold on things God had already given him or he couldn’t enjoy their benefits. When Joshua was defeated at Ai, he did not chalk the loss up to “the will of God” or “it must not’ve been the will of God for us to have Ai.” No! Instead he compared what happened in reality (the loss) and the promise of God (everywhere you set your foot, I have given you) and saw the contrast and cried out to God. God gave him the answer and Joshua took the answer and reattacked Ai and won the victory. This is, IMHO, a typical application and type and shadow of our lives NOW, post AD70. Father has won certain things for us in Christ and yet it is up to us, like Joshua, to take them, not from God, but from whatever is holding them unjustly.
This is how my mind applies my eschatology. I see, for example, John 14:12 as meaning I am to act like Jesus. Jesus conquered sickness like crazy. So, according to Him, we believers should be able to do the same. I have seen this happen so many times. Instantly stuff happens when you actually think we are living in the Kingdom of God and can say “as in heaven, so in earth” and apply the things of heaven to this physical world. My mom had a cyst on her wrist the other day. It became painful. She came over, I laid hands on it, and with the above thoughts, commanded it to leave her body. Nothing happened. I meditated a little further on the persistence of David against his enemies, and spoke directly to the cyst again. Immediately she felt something happening (tingling, heat) and all the pain left immediately, and it began to disappear; we could see it! She called me the next day and told me it was completely gone.
What began in AD70 was a dominion given to the people of God. But we must, like Joshua, exercise that authority by Father’s own power; resurrection power. AMEN!
Further, as we do this, we are participating in the harvest of souls because it is indeed a SHOW & TELL Kingdom.
sam
Greg,
If we follow the biblical pattern, then we have Bondage-Exodus-Wilderness-Entrance-Conquering-Glory-World Domination.
That is, from Moses to Joshua to Solomon.
From Law to Gospel to Glory
If we apply this pattern to the NT, we get Exodus (Passover/Atonement) – 40 Year Wandering/Wilderness- “this generation” to Entrance into Canaan/Better Country/Kingdom of God….and THEN CONQUERING and GLORY and DOMINION over the WHOLE WORLD.
We are in the Joshua period. We have entered, but we have yet to conquer all the enemies in the land (“world”). We have yet to accomplish the typical actions displayed in the Solomonic Glory. The Full Preterists “spiritualize” all of this. The biblical pattern, though, shows over and over again how Full Preterism is false. Mike Bull, James Jordan, and scholars like T.D. Alexander and G.K. Beale are operating within the LARGER PARADIGMATIC context of the biblical PATTERNS as a whole. These patterns TRUMP any single “prooftext” one could quote. And, since the Full Preterist has “all” prophecy (and therefore ALL typology – which is prophetic as well- and pattern) fullfilled, they have NO PARADIGM or PATTERN or TYPE to follow today. Nothing. Oh, they can pay lip service to whatever traditional sense of “church” or “influence” or “benefits of the kingdom” they want to so as to keep themselves “in” Christianity (Robin recently announced on Pret Cosmos that Christianity is “cursed”). I see them moving further and further away from Christianity as Christians know it – that’s what error does, it increases. Their dwindling numbers, though, will give out. Full Preterism won’t be around for decades (oh, there will always be a few out there, like rambling Campingites always going back to the drawing board).
The heyday of Full Preterism came and went. It’s more of a curiosity to most online searchers.
I am much more at home with honest folks like Birks, Stone, Duncan, PaulT and yourself.
But, the PATTERNING of the Bible – the METANARRATIVE cannot possibly fit within a Full Preterist framework that has it all “finished” (everything that needs to be finished in regards to everything and anything at all) in AD 70 will ultimately fail. Three major players have realized this: Dr. Birks, Todd Dennis, Erick Blore and others….more to come…
Duncan
Greg,
I do believe in an active reign by the believer today (through prayer and sharing God’s love in word and deed). Look at the parable of the minas in Luke 19:11-21. When the nobleman returns (having received his kingdom) he gives his followers authority over cities (not to be taken too literally). The kingdom did not end at that time, its reign fully began (cf. Dan. 7:21-22; Matt. 19:28; Rev. 2:25-27; 3:21; 11:15-18; 20:4). One could say the the kingdom is administered by God’s people today. Here is something on this. http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/what-are-the-kingdom
QuantumGreg
Wow, Sam, amen! I have read and studied many articles and books by James Jordan. I love the patterns and types he presents. Yes, the metanarrative… I see it. He’s about my favorite theologian, second only to you… hahahaha… :) No, seriously… this is awesome.
Duncan, I love your opening statement, brother: ” If one’s study of Scripture is not being applied to one’s life and world it is of little benefit. To be honest, I have not seen much on the practical applications of preterism; without it preterism becomes more of an intellectual exercise.”
SO TRUE. This is exactly where I am.
You wrote, “So how do we rule with our Lord? I believe the biggest single way is through prayer” and then concluding, “Quite simply, we need to get off our behinds and get on our knees and starting ruling with Jesus!”
OK, I reached this point about 2 years ago. But I would like to add to your conclusion John 14:12. Please read it. It is an absolutely amazing statement. I could hardly accept it as true. When you really believe that it is true then Jesus Christ Himself becomes your example, not just your Savior and Sovereign Lord.
“The same works” is challenge enough! It shouldn’t be, but it seemingly is in our day of a powerless “gospel.”
When I started taking this scripture seriously, I decided that if Jesus said this, then it has to be true. So what are “the same works” that Jesus did? That’s easy:
- He healed multitudes of people instantly.
- He laid his hands on individuals and got them healed instantly.
- He spoke words and individuals got healed instantly.
- He walked on water.
- He raised the dead.
- He turned a few loaves of bread and fish into enough food to feed a multitude.
- He turned water into wine.
- He commissioned others to do His work.
- He forgave sins.
Amazingly, He said we can do these things. And since He spent most of His time healing the sick and teaching, I figured I’d major on the majors and minor on the minors.
In our day you see these letters often: WWJD, which stands for “What Would Jesus Do?” (or as a partial-pret “When Was Jesus Due?” LOL) but the sad part is that most American Christians think this just means not to cuss, not to get angry, give to the poor, be honest, be hard-working, be faithful, be loving, etc. and other moral characteristics. But one only has to skim over the gospels to see that that is not what is pointed out to the reader that Jesus did. It was the miracles in Jesus’ ministry that made people take notice of what He had to say. Jesus preached a “Show & Tell” gospel… one that proclaimed liberty to mankind, and then showed that liberty primarily by healing the sick. This is what we must do, IMHO.
I narrowed this down in my own life to 7 things that made healing and miracles a common occurrence in my daily life:
(1) Jesus said we could do His very works (and greater).
(2) I can’t qualify myself by being good. I can’t disqualify myself by being bad. God’s righteousness is a free gift all the time.
(3) I can get anybody healed on my faith. I don’t have to depend on their beliefs at all (i.e. I have gotten unbelievers and atheists healed and this becomes instrumental in leading them EASILY to Christ).
(4) Expect something to happen immediately; it will.
(5) Persist by praying again if necessary (Jesus laid hands on a blind man two times to get him 100% healed). Push for an immediate manifestation of some sort.
(6) Test it immediately.
(7) Tell them Jesus has healed them, and Father loves them dearly and has forgiven them of all their sins.
This is how PP has affected my life and ministry for Jesus & the Kingdom.
sam
Dave Green wrote,
” . . . we have the clear pattern in Rev 21-22 – growth
and expansion POST AD 70 – to which one must drop
the FP error that ‘all’ prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70.”
My response:
For some reason, someone who was a full preterist teacher for a number of years continues to inaccurately portray full preterists as teaching that everything was fulfilled and terminated in AD 70. :)
The reality of course is that the kingdom’s unending “growth and expansion” (Rev. 21-22) is itself fulfilled prophecy that remains fulfilled “forever and ever” (Rev. 22:5).
Dave :)
Obviously, Dave does not understand what the word FULLfilled means. Judas handing over Jesus, for example, was FULLfilled – not ongoing, not to be repeated, done, kaput, fin. This is why Larry Siegle argues that it is not “ongoing fulfillment” (an oxymoron), but “appropriating the benefits of that which has been fulfilled”. I use the term “ongoing fulfillment” to mean that that which is ongoing is NOT YET FULLfilled…hasn’t FILLED UP it’s PURPOSE yet. And, of course, Purpose has an AIM (telos, end, goal). Dave’s view is confusing….
Larry Siegle
My argument is one related to “cause” and “effect” and that certain “causes” produce a continuing “effect” that is the ‘end-result’ or ‘consequence’ of that which was set in motion by the “cause” or “process”.
From my theological standpoint, the Cross is an example of what I mean. The prophet Isa. 53 gave predictive prophecy of what would be accomplished (as a FINISHED work) of bring redemption into the world. The “effect” of the Cross is that people have access to the benefits of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, thus entering into relationship with God and being “saved.”
Does Jesus “save” anyone today? Not in the sense that He goes to the Cross repeatedly and sheds his blood for the benefit of the fallen sinner. Rather, His “once-for-all-time” sacrifice became the BASIS through which a person living today–2,000 years after the fact, can benefit from what was already accomplished fully and completely.
Larry Siegle
sam
Larry,
Hey buddy. Thanks for chiming in. Yes, I understand your position and appreciate your clarity. The difference between us, of course, will come down to the “how” God saves his people. For Reformed theology, the “accomplishment” on the cross (Jesus died for the elect) is, in fact, thier “salvation”. Jesus’ death saved his people once and for all. In turn, this salvation is “applied” (using John Murray’s terms from his book, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied – a classic Reformed apology). In turn, though salvation was accomplished on the cross for the elect, the aspect of application is not yet fulfilled until said application is done to those whom God has called – whose “number can neither be increased, nor diminished”.
From a Full Preterist – so called “Reformed” (RINO)- position, the application can NEVER be fulfilled since the number of God’s people are ever increasing by the ever addition of one more (infinity). At the point God applies salvation to that one elect member – there is one more.
Thus, from your perspective (semi-Pelagian, or classic Arminianism), you have a point on your side (to which I would simply have to argue scriptural points with you). The so-called “Reformed” Full Preterists, though, as you can see, have a major error that runs into a logical contradiction. One can play the “paradox” card here, which, as you and I agree, is a dangerous card to play when it comes to theological systems.
sam
Ken Palmer recently responded to this article here:
http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/presuppositions-and-errors?xg_source=activity
It’s downright illustrative of one thing: Palmer apparently does not know that I preached Zech 14 as a Full Preterist as a POST 70 AD “growth and expansion” aspect. Hence, one cannot say “ALL” prophecy (every single one) was FULLfilled. Zechariah indicates “ongoing fulfillment” as a RESULT of the BEGINNING of (inauguration) the age to come. Much of what he is saying in this article is exactly what brought me and other FP’s into CONFLICT because they saw this prophecy as FULLfilled….I didn’t. Apparently, he doesn’t either, which begs the question: is this FULL Preterism? Sullivan, on the other hand, has the Mustard Seed (growth parables) as FULLfilled by AD 70 (so does Max King). Add and end of history to this (which the Bible teaches), and you have what I have been saying: Post AD 70 GROWTH and HARVEST til the end of history.
Now, I know Palmer has a hang up with Reformed Theology, but that’s his problem. Some FP’s say there “may” be and end to history (like Jeff Vaughn, who comments on Palmer’s post – actually, Jeff HAS an eventual end of history). Okay, Palmer, address your own kind, then: Harvest (Booths) POST AD 70, coupled with an END to history, and a calling of God POST 70 AD, and you get, voila, a NUMBERED, LIMITED AMOUNT of people called to live in booths.
It’s called Logic. Very simple.
I understand Full Preterism better than these guys!