Dear Sam;

Well stated and encouraging…one of the key questions I get in regards to a preteristic position is “how is this Good News?” This helps.

Dr Stan DeKoven

I totally agree.

I was unaware (I'm not in the know on all preterist views) that FP decided that the ongoing benefit of the New Jerusalem and the access to God was not available after 70AD. If that is what they believe, then I don't define them as a FP like me. The healing goes on, and the access to the Tree of Life is ongoing along with the Water of Life being freely given.

Just because the prophecy of Jesus bearing our iniquities (the messiah i.e. IS 53) by dying on the cross was fulfilled, that doesn't mean that the “effects and benefits” of that work ceased in AD70 or at the cross. Similarly the effects of the AD70 judgment and completion of the work of Jesus that was witnessed by the whole world “is” and will continue to be ongoing.

“My words will never pass away”. Those words Jesus was speaking of were the words of life, and they will not return void, and will continue to draw people unto him. Count on it.

Thanks Sam, Kerry.

Mike,

I have, I think, demonstrated that what is “great” (“increase”) is his kingdom and peace, and it shall have no end. It's the eternal peace and greatness of his kingdom is that it eternal. I believe exegetically speaking that it is impossible to get “infinite procreation” from this verse. Would you agree?

Sharon,

Of course it does. The arguement is an equivocation. “If infinity ends, like you say, then eternity must end, too.” Well, no. Infinity is not eternity. Two different things. One is quantitative, which I deny, and the other is qualitative, which I affirm. By differientiating the terms, I don't run into the nonsensical paradox my opponents do.

Sam wasn't even worried about that issue. I was just pointing out that it can be ongoing (after AD70) what ever you (or anyone) thinks it means. There are other verses too that are similar.

Hi Sam and everyone.
Hope you don't mind if I disagree a little.
My take:

And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it (Rev 21.24).
The problem is that the “kings of the earth” are the first fruits. WHEN did they bring their glory “into it”?
In the consumation of the then present age which was still future for John. (John moves back a forth from process to conclusion as he explains that the old cannot get into the new and what the conclusion of that would be. Both are spoken of in future tense to his position.)
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Cr 10:6 And having in a READINESS to revenge all disobedience, WHEN YOUR obedience is FULFILLED.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of YOUR FAITH, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found UNTO PRAISE and HONOUR and GLORY AT the APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though NOW YE SEE [him] NOT, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of GLORY:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

The kings of the earth (Rev. 5:10) are not bringing in any more glory into NJ. The glory that is in question is being brought into NJ in the very ending of the age at the appearance of Christ who comes as a thief IN THE NIGHT to end the night.

So then the nations that are saved are the nations that are judged and saved in that appearance and so then also bring their glory into NJ at that time and through that process.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

The point that John is making in Revelation is that the old cannot get into the new. In the verses quoted he is not declaring an ongoing “process”. If he is then then judgment that was made as a thief in the night then carries on forever in the day. And that stands contrary to every point that is made concerning the nature and the timing of judgment.

Also:
The reason why there are two trees of life in regards to the healing of the nations is because there was a Jew and Gentile mission while NJ is coming down and while Christ is “making everything new”.
That is why there are two “witnesses” and two “olive trees” in Revelation. They speak of the two missions to the Jew first and also to the Greek or Gentile.
The healing of the nations is a healing from the “law” which was still in effect.

Simply put, there is NO “hold fast firm beyond the end” any where to be found.
The process of the formation of NJ as it is coming down is not to be confused with its ongoing effect or perpetual efficacy.
NJ is not a city we now join, it is a city we realize.
The darkness is, and has, past away. We do not move from a position of darkness to light, but we can open our eyes to the light.

Blessings Barry
PS imho Is 9:7 “marbeh” should read, “the magnitude” or “the greatness” and not “increase”.

It is the magnitude of the peace and greatness that has no end because the kingdom has no end. Such is never described in terms of a continued “acquisition” or but a total dominance of rule. A complete take over of what was but is no more.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms that the tempter showed Jesus, are no longer his.
Just a thought.

Sharon, i couldn't stand it no more. Your avatar change inspired me to make some changes on RCM. hehe. I finally found a way to implement an old english font to the site. I love the vintage look! Thanks for the inspiration! ( :

If, in fact, we are living during the times of the “healing of the nations”, then this is ongoing in fulfillment to the Scriptures. The Age to Come is an Age of “fulfilling”. Make sense?

The alternative to that Sam is:
1) The “healing of the nation” is the result of fulfillment and not fulfillment itself.
2) We are not in that time as per that particular context.

Personally I think it is number 2.
I know that at first glance it looks like it might be post “end of age”. But John keeps moving back and forth from future tense “ending of age” to future tense “conclusion of fulfillment”.

Example:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If John were not moving back and forth it would imho read like this:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This [is] the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Perhaps a better example and closer to the context:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {Coming conclusion of fulfillment}
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {John moves back to process of fulfillment still not concluded.}

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, {conclusion of fulfillment} and {so} he WILL dwell with them, and they SHALL BE his people, and God himself SHALL BE with them, [and be] their God. {So in this verse John moved from conclusion “with men” to still concluding “shall be with them”.}
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things ARE PASSED AWAY. {Is this verse John moved from still concluding to conclusion.}
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. {The correct tense in the Greek is “I am making everything new” so then the point is that the concluding process of fulfillment was not yet finalized.} And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, IT IS DONE {conclusion}. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I WILL GIVE {moves back to process in the same verse again.} unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh {that age that world they are in} SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS {Conclusion}; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, {two trees of life in the application of the NJ that is coming down, and making everything new as these are the 2 missions, Jew and Gentles which correspond to the 2 witnesses and 2 olive trees, in the process of fulfillment still in concluding} which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations {of which the ones saved shall bring their glory into her (NJ, see my previous comments on “kings of the earth” and “nations saved”).}
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse {coming conclusion}: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. {conclusion}
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants THE THINGS which MUST SHORTLY BE DONE. {The conclusion is permanent but the process is not! For if this is ongoing fulfillment then those very things cannot be considered shortly to be done!}
Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

His reward was “with him”. Ongoing fulfillment means ongoing “coming”. Imho no preterist can escape this point.
So what is a bit confusing to us from our vantage point imho is that John moves back and forth from aspects of what was the process to the permanent conclusion, because with his audience relevance the old cannot get into the new. And that is what he is describing. But that point (old cannot enter into new) and so then the conclusion of that point (everything made new).

And such is also the consistancy of not only the rest of Revelation, but the rest of the NT.

Just a thought.